In addition, I wish I was so clever and knowledgeable that I felt comfortable in arguing a biological fact ... that wolves have crushing molars ... with an eminent a research body as the University of Edinburgh !!

i think you'd be surprised.. sometimes the papers i read often have speculative or at worst flippant comments thrown in.. these are usually referenced but i don't find every single thing i read in them to be completely factual.. not having a go at edinburgh though- just an observation!

Until I read solid scientific evidence that they are of benefit I see no need to feed them.

Absolutely mse2, I quite agree, but this wasn't the only piece of evidence that I found, just that it was in the easiest and most palatable form, so I used it for the sake of common sense.

Evie: I take a handful of vitamin pills every morning. Vitamin C, cod liver oil, zinc, glucosamine etc. My diet is pretty healthy, consisting of meat, fish, fruit and vegetables with a small amount of unrefined carbohydrate. I am probably wasting my money taking at least some of these pills, as my diet is pretty good, but I still take these pills on a "just in case basis".

I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand your lax attitude towards the health of your dogs. I know many dogs, mine included, who looked the picture of health on kibble, or a mix of kibble and raw or cooked, but after 5 years, my dog fell very sick indeed suddenly and out of the blue.

In the case of your dogs, they are fed on raw meat and bones, that is excellent, and they are far less likely to suffer too much from the lack of vegetable matter, because you are 90% there. But why not go the whole hog and push that up to 100%?

A friend of mine who also feeds BARF has checked with his vet - a very experienced and highly qualified veterinary surgeon of around 25 years - and he was horrified to learn that a lot of people don't feed raw vegetable or plant matter along with the meat and bones. His exact words apparently were "that is a very unbalanced diet, to the extent that it is probably worse than just feeding commercial dog food".

Gnasher I have to applaud your sincerity and genuine care for dogs...however we don't actually know that any dogs NOT fed veg are unhealthy.
What we prob. need is some sort of test to indicate what is healthy (as I think we prob. agree that health is subjective) I see alot of dogs and can compare, which means I am actually able to guess accuratly ages and sometimes what they are fed on. Other people only have their own dogs, and assume if they are eating and running about they are healthy. We don't actually know what is going on underneath.

I would like to say that for all my experience on natural diets, I still don't quite understand what is going on. I have seen the difference in countless dogs changed over to a fresh food diet 'natural' diet, with positive outcomes. However then I here about a guy who has collies living to 17 on pedigree chum, I knew of a vet that fed his dogs pasta and beef heart every day, and a woman with a lhaso apso that fed nothing but cooked chicken breast for 18 years, and a guy on Dogsey who says he had a collie on pedigree chum for 23 years.

Clearly there are other factors at play here...

Good point Jess, and therefore even more reason to play it safe. We can all quote instances of the most extraordinary and unhealthy diets fed to dogs, cats, humans, horses, with apparently no undesirable side effects. Indeed, just the opposite, the animal has lived a long and healthy life, as in the examples you quote.

I knew a lovely old doctor who lived to 99 and ever since the age of about 14, he had smoked at least 60 untipped cigarettes every day of his life !

However, none of this means that the creatures in question are healthy. Who knows that Hal's bladder stones weren't caused by the years of being fed on kibble? Had he not been fed that revolting food, he may well still be with us today. And yet, during those years he was on kibble, until the day his anal glands became completely blocked and his anus prolapsed, he appeared to be as fit as a flea.

I'm sorry, but I cannot understand anyone being, frankly, so bloody stubborn and pig headed when she may (or indeed may not) be risking the health or life of her beloved dogs. It just isn't worth it, for the sake of a few pennies and a bit of time.

Trying to get my head round all this ..... is anyone under the impression (or any studies done to suggest) that feeding, say, a tablespoon of pulped raw veg per day is harmful?

If it is not harmful, and some people say it is beneficial, why not cover all bases and add it to the feed?

I can totally understand why people would not give the dogs something that may be harmful 'just in case' - but a spoonful of veg..???

The polarisation caused by this issue has surprised me.

I know red collar, I couldn't agree more. Of course feeding a spoonful of pureed veg a don't won't cause any harm. It beggars belief !

Gnasher;
I am tired of the fact that when I don't agree with you on this issue that you must resort to name calling and insults. I had hoped we had resolved this issue after you last accused me of being sarcastic and vulgar for no good reason. We are all adults here and welcome to our own opinions and to debate them with each other if we so wish.
Personal insults are not needed just because someone disagrees with your point of view.

I have my breaking point Evie ... consider it broken !!

It is not my point of view, it is FACT ... BIOLOGICAL FACT !! Wolves and therefore our domesticated wolves, otherwise known as dogs, have teeth designed to process vegetable matter.

Have you lived with wolves? Shaun Ellis has, and does. I attended an excellent lecture last summer that he gave, and during this lecture he confirmed to his audience that wolves eat the stomach contents of their herbivorous prey. If you do not believe me, then I suggest you contact him via the Coome Martin website. He will doubtless elaborate to you how the omegas tend to eat more of the stomach content than the higher ranking betas and Alpha male and female.

I for one would feel distinctly uncomfortable arguing with venerable research institutions and a man who has dedicated his life to researching AND living with wolves, but if you feel you are qualified to do so, then go ahead with my blessing. I would be very interested to learn how you get on as well, and will be the first to apologise if it turns out that I am completely wrong.