Raw and allergies question...

i have been thinking for a while now about feeding jake raw, but last time i was going to do it, is seemed so daunting so i wanted to read a lot more about it before i took the plunge. he was on wainwrights, but as some of you know he had really bad allergies. so now is on wafcol. he is doing well on it, and he is all cleared up. he has been getting chicken, and had no reaction after a few weeks so he is now getting some beef as well. (he only started it yesterday - how fast would his allergy start up to it?) i have been doing a lot of reading, and read from a number of places that commercial food can cause allergies with all the grain etc in it. so now im moving even more to going raw. i dont want to keep chopping and changing his food, using commercial food to find one that suits him.

so, i have been thinking that raw is really the way to go with him. but i have a few questions (the title gave that away ), if jake is allergic to a few different meats, and chicken is the only one i can give him, would he be able to healthily just eat that? i know that i will need to wait and see what happens with the other meats first but its just something i have been thinking about. i also have read about adding yoghurt and eggs to the food, so its something else i will have to see about and make sure he doesnt react to those either. although, i am aware that just feeding him raw, without the cereals from the commercial food, could put a stop to his allergies.

another question is, could i start feeding him raw just now and just use chicken and beef, gradually adding other meats? or should i wait to see what meats cause it first sticking to the wafcol and then start?

and lastly would raw be a good diet, and possible the best option, for a dog with allergies? i want to do that best for jake.

thanks

I thought of raw with Milo with his allergies, but when I spoke to the specialist (who was very for raw feeding and fed his own dogs raw) he said it would be no good for Milo as I would not be able to provide him with a balanced diet and Milo would miss out on vital nutrients.

I suppose it very much depends on each dog's specific allergies & sensitivities. Common sense would suggest that if you find a complete food that your dog will eat & does not cause him/her any reactions, then this should be the staple diet ~ at least for a while until all symptoms have disappeared. Then you can try adding some raw chicken (or whatever raw meat you choose to start with) & cutting down on the complete food. Stick with this for a while & provided there's no reaction, try adding another type of meat.

You can also try a few raw bones of the same type of meat you're trying out, e.g. chicken wings/necks, or some beef bones.

You could also try some raw juiced up veggies but perhaps start with only one or two at first to see how your dog reacts.

Provided everything is fine, then try some offal ~ maybe small pices of liver at first, then try adding some kidney/heart.

I think that dogs with allergies & sensitivities need, more than any other dog, to be introduced to a raw diet very gradually, over several months. Just adding one type of raw food at a time & giving the dog's body time to adjust would seem the sensible way to go about it. At least that way you have a good chance of identifying any foods your dog can't tolerate & can cut them out immediately.

Whilst I appreciate that a vet has to say that raw feeding a dog with food allergies could go wrong, I also think that even just adding a bit of raw meat or raw bones to the weekly rations would be beneficial to the dog. You don't necessarily have to go the whole hog with the BARF diet ~ the balanced part of the diet remains with the complete food but healthy & more interesting food can substitute for the complete food for a few meals a week.

But this is just my personal opinion ~ I'm not a canine nutritionist ~ so if you have any doubts, be guided by your vet.

thanks, did you know what milo was allergic to?

thanks. he is doing well on the wafcol, but i dont want to keep him on that. but now its got me thinking that it could be the wheat, grain etc in the commercial food that causes his allergies. especially coz it always affects his face, which some people have suggested could be storage mites. i really want to put him on raw, but im just worried that he may be allergic to a few meats so maybe be stuck with only getting chicken, which i dont think would provide a good enough diet for him...

i guess i will just need to wait and see though... i think i might just start feeding him a bit of raw and a bit of wafcol, at least until i find out what he is allergic to.

Wait - do you actually know (as in, have had testing done) what he is allergic to?

Because in comparison to environmental allergies, actual food allergies (rather than sensitives - two different things) are rare.

When I got Raz he could only eat fish. As his general condition improved, and his stress levels dropped, he was gradually able to eat `normally`, but I wanted to get his weight up to started switching to raw. I saw a dramatic improvement in him -coat, weight, condition- and now he is able to eat all meats. I don`t supplement with veggies. he gets green tripe sometimes and also oily fish which should supply extra nutrients.

he hasnt had a test done, but he was treated for numerous things all of which didnt work. then eventually he was put on steroids, which cleared it up. the vet told me to wean him off the steroids, but within a week of him being off them, it all came back again. he was put on and taken off them a few times, and each time the same thing happened so the vet said it had to be an allergy.

she said because of where he was affected, it is more likely to be food coz if its environmental, then the body and paws etc are usually affected. he is off the steroids now, and has been getting wafcol for about 8 or 9 weeks, and been off the steroids for about 5 or 6 weeks and so far no signs of any reaction to anything. so i think it probably will be to food.

see thats what im wanting for jake on raw, to hopefully get his weight up a wee bit (he has lost 3kg being on the wafcol, even though he is getting what he should be). although i think jake has a good condition and coat, i think it would be good to see if raw could make it even better. i was wondering about the veggies though, coz some do feed them and some dont but most sites say it isnt essential as dogs are carnivores so only need meat. jake isnt a big veggie fan anyway, he only really seems to like potatoes and carrots.

There seems to be divided opinion as to whether dogs need veggies or not. Some raw food books & articles say that the juiced up veggies replicate the contents of prey's stomach (although whether canids eat this is another topic of debate!) & others prefer what is called the prey model diet in which veggies are not given.

As I have 2 greedy labs I prefer to include some raw juiced up mixed veg, especially green leafy veg, as it provides some bulk & fibre in their diet but without too many calories, and by processing the veggies in a juicer & giving them both the pulp & juice, it makes the nutrients readily available to the dogs. But I only include a small amount mixed with their mince once or twice a week.

But I have seen plenty of domestic dogs happily pick ripe blackberries for themselves, & we all know dogs that enjoy munching on a piece of carrot ~ one of mine loves chunks of red & yellow peppers. And I think that if they tend to eat small amounts of fruit & veg naturally & willingly, then perhaps it does feature in the diets of wild canids & perhaps we should be including it in our "home-made" raw diets. One of my friend's dogs regularly catches & eats wild rabbits & I can truthfully say, having watched this many times, that she eats just about every single part, including bones, fur, organs, ears & intestines. The only part she sometimes leaves (because she's too full?!) is the rear end, but even then she carries it around for a while just in case she can manage another mouthful!

I wouldn't say that dogs are true carnivores in the sense that they are obligate carnivores like cats. Dogs can & do survive on a vegetarian diet so they can get suficient protein & nutrients from sources other than meat (not that I am suggesting that anyone should feed their dog a vegetarian diet). But our domestic dogs have evolved from canids like wolves that can scavenge & feed on things other than just prey that they catch, so I don't think that it is necessarily normal for them to soley have a meat based diet. And if they do have a meat based diet it is important to include all parts of an animal, not just lean muscle meat. They need the chewy tendons, cartilage, sinews, internal organs, skin, brains, eyes, bones etc etc.

If you look up some of the reports on raw feeding, many people say that their dogs used to have allergies, skin sensitivities, poor coat condition, stomach upsets, bad teeth, smelly breath etc. They have tried all sorts of commercial foods with no success, but changing to a raw diet has helped enormously. Maybe it is cutting out the grains & cereals which some dogs can't tolerate, or maybe because a good raw diet boosts the immune system sufficiently so that the body can cope & allergies fade?

I would love for some research establishment to conduct proper clinical trials on canine nutrition (& not the pet food manufacturers who obviously have a vested interest in promoting their own foods) but I think the costs of such trials are prohibitively expensive, so we shall probably wait forever!

i think it is difficult know what is really needed for all dogs, but i think some would probably do better than other other with veggies. its hard sometimes with reflicting reports. giving veggies wouldnt be a priority for me, but i think it would maybe be good for him to maybe get them once a week or something like that, but only if he likes them. otherwise i would just leave it out completely.

what are good veggies to feed them?

i have read the same as what you are saying, and thats what has really made me want to put him on a raw diet. even if it isnt the wheat, grain etc. i think a raw diet would be easier to make sure i can know exactly what he is eating and so i can keep whatever food he is allergic to right out of his diet. and maybe it will boost the immune system and help that way too.

how do you make sure that they are getting the right balance of everything they need?

The veggies I concentrate on with my dogs are green leafy veggies like spinach, kale, cabbage & brocolli. But I also include carrots, sweet potatoes, cauliflower, sprouts, courgettes, butternut squash & anything else that maybe in season. I don't use raw potatoes, anything from the onion family (i.e. leeks, spring onions etc). I also choose organic where I can, especially if it's a veg that I don't peel, like courgettes.

Rather than concentrating on every meal being balanced, I try to even things out over the course of a couple of weeks. So if the dogs are getting lamb bones one day, I'd give them beef mince & veggies the next, then possibly some offal the next day, fish (e.g. coley, tuna, pilchards ~ I don't do raw fish for them) etc. My dogs have bones about 5 times a week & whilst this may sound a lot, they have their main meal in the evening with only a light breakfast. So in the evenings they would have some mince (plus veg or offal) or fish, followed by some bones. So if they have mince & offal one night, they'd only have a small piece of oxtail, but the next day they might have lots of pork bones.

I don't have any hard & fast rules, but just use common sense to vary the diet. Sometimes we'll have a roast dinner on a sunday & I'll cook extra veggies so the dogs will have some leftover cooked meat plus cooked veggies the next day.

But I do watch their body condition, coat, energy levels & if I though there was anything wrong I'd probably add some multivits for a while. My dogs get weighed regularly at hydrotherapy so I can also keep a close eye on their weight too.

It's difficult to be very prescriptive with raw feeding as all dogs are different so it can sometimes be a bit of trial & error. In your case, with Jake's sensitivities, I think I'd be a bit cautious & only introduce one new food at a time, then give it a few weeks before trying anything else. If he's ok on the wafcol for the time being, you could feed one meal of wafcol, then, say, different cuts of chicken in the evenings, e.g. minced chicken & veg, or minced chicken & some chicken livers, chicken thighs/wings/necks. Then maybe introduce some turkey mince. I don't think that sticking to chicken only for a few weeks would mean that Jake isn't getting a balanced diet, especially if he's getting wafcol once a day as well.

If Jake did ok with chicken, then perhaps gradually introduce some turkey, or beef/lamb/rabbit/pork over time. But I think you'd have to give it a few weeks each time you introduced another food to make sure that it doesn't upset him.

And whilst I would personally try it this way, I do have stress that I'm no expert. The only experience I have is with my own dogs & those of friends who all raw feed as well. But I have heard from the local DT kennels that they give dogs raw bones sometimes & that dogs with IBS are given meats like ostrich & venison ~ things they've never had before & that their bodies don't react to ~ and this is under veterinary advice.

Best of luck with Jake's diet. I'll be interested to hear how you're getting on if you decide to try it.