Hi Dawn

Did you click on my link? Or try the one Brierley provided.
I wouldn't be surprised if the article has even been pulled to be honest.

Basically Uncllou was showing how to train food refusal.

Dog is used to electric collar, it is set on the highest level (so very painful).

Dog is teased with food and shocked, for one second, later it happens again, but shock is for 3-4 seconds, later it happens again, even if the owner has to wait all day, eventually the dog is shocked for 5 seconds.

These are highly painful shocks.

It is done when the dog is hungry.

The dog is probably very afraid of even looking at any food let alone food in hisown bowl.

Yet another reason I dislike the collars, because this sort of training is part of using them for the supporters

It's not so much the physical pain but the mental suffering that bothers me.

ok I can accept that it can be used as a failsafe device in the situation you describe. Although frankly I prefer my voice which has always worked for me, however I can accept that it does not work for everyone.
However this is not the only reason you use it, is it? Did you not say earlier that it was used in training not just for problems.
sorry if I'm missing the point, struggling to follow what with all the coughs. (?????????? whatever that means)

Dawn try this, but do it quickly, the other link has I believe been pulled by someone...it worked just minutes ago!!


http://siriusdog.com/articles/food-r...aining-dog.htm

Sounds fairly reasonable in theory, but hypothetically:

Owner is out having a peaceful walk with a reliably trained dog
The e-collar is on the dog's neck as a 'fail safe' remote 'stop him dead in his tracks' mechanism
The dog is motivated into prey drive by the sight of a rabbit running across a busy road and he 'instinctively' pursues
Owner, instinctively reacts with a verbal recall signal
Dog (for may be the first time in years) does not respond
Owner looks for the failsafe remote that he hasn't needed to use for ...............? time
When he finds it, he needs to re-set it as the dog is now in a high drive situation
Owner adjusts, and then 'hits the button'
(let's just hope that he remembered to charge the batteries before leaving the house because let's not forget that he hasn't had to use this piece of kit in ............? time)

Of course, seeing all this, the driver of the car that was very close at the time of the chase pursuit obligingly slows down to five miles an hour while the owner of the dog got his act together.
Yep, fail safe!!!

Methods using positive reinforcement etc are, I agree, far more rewarding to teach and more fun. Pet owners really don't need these electric collars and let's not forget the prison service, police etc do not routinely use them.

There is a man in Scotland who brought in the first electri collar into his country (the old one) and he now is totally against them. He is a gundog trainer and he despises those gundog trainers who use them, and IMO rightly so.

The reason the collars work is due to pain or at the lower end of the scale severe discomfort, otherwise they wouldn't work, it is that simple really.

I've trained dogs really fast using positive methods, often I would say they are faster, anyway!

My thoughts exactly, which is why I would always rely on my big gob. I have always got it with me the batteries never fail and it is adjustable in an instant. My voice works because we practise recall all the time in varying situations and it works without fail. We know this because we practise it. How do you know the failsafe device will work in that situation, do you practise that too?

I've been doing some more reading.

Gundog trainers who use them - it seems that it's not uncommon for dogs to find it hard to obey recall as they may be in tall grass and cannot see the handler.

The handler will then shock them harder and harder, all the while the dog is desperately trying to find the handler and obey but is being punished for failure

Some are using them for housetraining puppies

Dogs who seem happy after being trained with electric collars are often just totally thrilled to have avoided the painful stimulation, which is why in some of the manwork dog sports, the dogs often run eagerly back to handler after they are told to "get off" the criminal person. It's not training or skill, it seems to be due to pain and fear of pain.

Dearie me

Just going back to the training of the food refusal by umclllou,

What if the owner dies, or wants to go on holiday?
What if the situation was trained wrongly or the dog didn't understand so associates things like his owner nearby or even the carpet as the only safe thing? Depends on where this is trained.

I feel this training is a welfare issue for dogs, and why on earth would anyone want to actually put this in an article for the general public to read and perhaps even try is - well, unprintable.

The dog is trained with the electric collar on the highest possible level - with some, that might then be 100 out of a level of 0 - 100 !!!!! There is no qualification as to what type of collar in the article.

It says it is common use of this training collar.
And that all this should be repeated the next day, and with other types of food treat (it's actually done in the yard or garden with the owner watching ready to zap).

So the dog has many, many zaps on a high level.
I bet that dog is in one heck of a state. This is very harsh, cruel training. It is brutal and I'd say yes, abusive.

Disgusting!

Trouble21
struggling to follow what with all the coughs. (?????????? whatever that means)

Clob
Yes I can emphasise with that, going back to pre-1998, before the first modern collar came off the production line I would have been able to go only so far in understanding modern e-collars by reading a net forum, the rest has to come from practical experience, either seminars or lessons are the only other steps another alternative which pushes information a bit further is a video, but at the end of the day people can only get a superficial idea at best reading things on the net.

This might explain something not mentioned so far. Electro muscle stimulation technology has successfully changed peoples use of traditional products over a vast area of uses [including updating my 40 year or so of experience of dog training methods in 1998].

Johnson and Johnson pharmaceuticals were ordered to pay $130,000 for liable for making false claims about electro muscle stimulation devices which made their off the shelf tablets and other medicines out of date for a one off payment for an elexrto pulse muscle stimulation device which had the same results and no side effects.

E-collars are the same, lets face it I can refer anyone to a trainer who garantees a recall in a one hour lesson for £45 another £25, the conditions are that the dog understand the recall, no stress, thats just commercial competoos who say that, they garantee nothing and charge the earth

Below is an article I extracted from a text paper of mine – at the bottom are links to a whole cross section of electro muscle stimulation products – that might widen you current concepts of what they are but the rest you have to go and see or get some practical experience, that’s what I did.


Chapter 6.

Static Stimulation Development

Part 2.

Electro Muscle Stimulation in Perspective.

Although this paper is dedicated to remote electronic training collars I feel it is appropriate to clarify what static stimulation is and place it in its wider context and perspective of uses. It is erroneous to think of it as specific to e-training collars and thoughts of electricity being involved should be put aside because of the historical and normal connotations to electrical sensation.

In the case of any external devices deliberately designed to cause a sensation a specific number of electrical waves pass between the contact points bouncing off the surface of the skin, say for instance 1000 waves per second. It is the number of bounces on the skin surface per sec which is usually known as ‘the intensity’. If the speed of the waves bouncing along the skin surface was slowed down to 500 bounces per sec the sensation would decrease, speed up to 2000 waves and the sensation would increase in ‘intensity’.

If 1000 bounces per sec reached an accumulated point of discomfort whereby it distracted someone from ‘doing’ something after 6 sec and the discomfort ceased at the point the behaviour changed then the cessation of the behavioural action would reinforce or reward the pleasant relief behaviour and strengthened it.

As I have stated the working functionality of a modern e - training collar is based on the accumulation of a static stimulus sensation which is not dependant on one element making up the sensation ( i.e. intensity ) it is based on two elements. If you start to scratch your arm at a level which is uncomfortable but not an immediate overwhelming intensity and continue at that level you will soon find it becomes uncomfortable to a point that you discontinue the behaviour = discomfort + length of time = change in behaviour, i.e stopped the action of scratching.

Even with an intellect a billion, billion universes beyond that of a dog humans learn and benefit by sensation very early on. We learn ‘not’ to hold our hands to close the fire for to long ‘intensity + duration’, we learn ‘not’ to wait to long after the hunger pain sensation starts and eat for pleasant relief, dogs learn to avoid the unpleasant sensation of direct sun and keep to the shade after a short exposure to direct sun, ‘intensity + duration, positively reinforcing low degrees of activity. Most dogs are more active on cold days, as the increase in activity from less activity the discomfort of feeling cold decreases, positively reinforcing increased degrees of activity on cold days. All these are negative reinforcement actions and are positively reinforced by strengthening behaviour which is rewarding.

Static stimulation has been in use and development for a vast variety of purposes for many years, at least since the 1950’s, long before e-collars became training collar category collars in 1998.

The main reasons e-collars remained behind other developed uses of variable level static stimulation instruments was its use on a moving object, very often under adverse environmental conditions, at long range and with the ability to be perpetually adjusted to the sensory widening and narrowing which occurs with drive activity levels. If analogue technology was still in existence e-collars would have remained as limited use collars.

Acupuncture pens are a product which give a sensation as a by-product of their design purpose but some children’s toys are deliberately designed to give a sensation of entertainment value, static bands are available which can be placed around wounds and aid healing, variable intensity static stimulation arm bands are available to displace concentration for people suffering some kind of pain in another part of the body.

Static stimulation devices designed to eliminate parasites and the conditions caused by them in humans and animals, micro current electrical stimulators for sore muscles, CES for relaxation, anxiety, meditation, and other benefits, massage devices.

On Channel 4 London region w/e July 7th 2004 an hour long late night program was dedicated to variable level static stimulation erotic M/F sex toys with optional combined vibration. The static sensation is exactly the same as e-collars, needless to say, the body areas had different biological purposes and responded to the sensation appropriately.

The fact that static stimulation is a sensation and the actual idea that in such a technologically advanced society we have not technologically progressed beyond being able to use electrical sensation beyond an elementary electric shock is absurd.

Such claims from groups or individuals are untrue and should either be dismissed or put in the context of such groups who opposed Darwin, when the first photographs were produced similar groups wanted photography banned because “Only God can make man in his own image”.

In the 40,000 years of the existence of the species dog there has always been one persistent problem, ‘distance control and training’. More dogs have suffered abuse due to frustration or revolving door rescues because of this than any other single reason. In the UK the e-training collar is giving dogs more freedom and stress free relationships in this past two or three years than at any time in the history of the species and they are the easiest to use addition to training aids of every kind.

The modern static stimulation e-training collar has taken the dog out of the dark ages of needing to be on the lead because it is out of control and given it the freedom within safety which is a requirement of the species if it is to live a quality life with stress free owners in a lifelong relationship which comes about by owning a well behaved dog.

The only suffering caused by e-training collars is to those who have commercially exploited pet owners in recent years by convincing them their dog has some kind of quasi medical condition which needs a lifetime of expensive ‘behavioural treatment’, when it refuses recall, raids picnics, runs at strange children barking at them or general, normal, uncontrolled, disruptive canine behaviour.

Reproduction for educational purposes permitted.
DenisCarthy©2004.

Electro Pulse, Muscle Stimulation Devices.

http://www.invet.net/en/enart/cat/#EH-2

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/...s/beauty/9488/

Wound Healing
http://www.medicaledu.com/estim.htm

Lighters, Chewing Gum, Calculators T
http://www.gadgetsquick.co.uk/index.php?cPath=30

Mind Peace
http://cerebrex.com/ces.htm#csns

Erotic
http://www.peselectro.com/PESMediaPESSexVs.asp

Lighter
http://www.whitedog.co.uk/catalog/pr...roducts_id=400

Brain Tuner
http://www.cerebrex.com/Merchant2/me...tegory_Code=CM

Violet Wands
http://violetwands.lunarpages.net/vi...2f0d693f02316c

www.tritronics.com

Electro Acupuncture
http://www.bodyclock.net/acatalog/el...upuncture.html

Erotic
http://www.erosboutique.org/store/me...ro_Stimulation

www.dogtra.com

Fibre Growth Veterinary
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/cpr/resear...%20Stimulation

Energy Acupuncture type
http://www.cerebrex.com/Merchant2/me...tegory_Code=EM

Wound Healing
http://www.medicaledu.com/estim.htm

Pen
http://www.gadgetsuk.com/Electric-sh...n-p-16649.html


Deep Brain
http://www.pallidotomy.com/deep_brain_stimulation.html

Electro Spinal Stimulation
http://fescenter.case.edu/Start_Here...ts/SCI/sci.htm

Clod, out of interest what do you think of unclllou's article on food refusal? Would you agree it is cruel?

Also you haven't answered the query re. your particular understanding of negative and positive; not being funny but you are the one who brought it all up, in the beginning.