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Location: Wakefield England
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,697
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20-01-2010, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Shona 
awe
bless his wee bandy legs,do you have any front views of him?
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Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
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20-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn
Have you found in your Career that Queens Annes legs, cut a career Short?
Are they Better /worse/ no difference at working than Straight legged springers?
Do the QA legs occur only in the Shorter dogs, bred for close cover or are they also in the Taller Lines (ie does one crop up occassionly in the taller lines)
Do these dogs get bred from?
Im geniunely Interested
I think the simple fact that they are bowed will put strain on the joints, I am sure they work as well as any straight legged dog , but any bone deformities will be at higher risk to arthritis and pressure to the limbs.
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
I've seen dogs with queen anne legs work, i suppose its the same as anything it depends on how severe, i have never put one in to a working home though we had one a couple of years ago where they were quiet severe and the vet said to leave well alone as they weren't bothering him, it probably wouldn't restrict their working life springers tend to have a high pain threshold and don't know when to stop, our gamekeepers dog had his shoulder pinned last year after an altercation with a badger (we think) hasn't stopped him doing a full season this year, out of the 600 or so that have come through rescue in the last few years we have only seem a couple that have had queen anne legs
I did not say , it would stop them working, but the fact they are are working on deformed legs will present problems that good conformation wont.
S o the fact a Springer has a high pain threshold makes it OK for them to be worked and bred from if they have extremely poor conformation.
Its funny the outcry that that you hear towards some pedigree breeds regarding the over exaggerated features/conformation.... any breed that mildly resembles a dog with the type of QA leg some Springer's have will be castigated to the extreme... yet in the Springer it seems all deformities are acceptable, as long as they dont show any pain.
Originally Posted by mse2ponder
Can I ask what you mean by 'over-populated', and where you've got that stat from? There was a KC registered springer which sired 2,538 puppies. It has been alluded to, that this was a show dog, but I can't find anything to verify this. Working or show, popular sires are detrimental to closed populations (see below).
http://www.canine-genetics.com/
I think thats obvious , dont you, every other dog you see in the street is a Springer Spaniel, (working type) how ofter do you see "show spaniels" walking down the high street,
I fact I would go as far to say, there would be many people who would not have a clue on seeing a show springer, that it is a SS.
Do you have anything to back up what you said about the 'queen anne' leg thing? I know people who have them and they've worked the same seasons as 'normal' dogs and shown no sign of discomfort.
Nope no documentation, just experience in seeing what I have sen and the fact that legs that are so deformed are going to suffer a higher percentage of stress than ones that are conformational correct.
the fact they dont show pain, does not mean they dont, nor is it an excuse to condone it.
To me, it looks like they'd suffer from a higher incidence of arthritis or something, but I have nothing to support that. Show/pet basset hounds are bred with a similar deformity but I don't know whether they actually suffer from joint problems, or whether it's more the stunted movement people dislike. I have to agree though - queen anne legs do look a bit unnatural which may or may not come at a cost to the dog.
And the working packs of Bassets are completey different to the show/pet type,
Originally Posted by Pidge
I think the broad chest is a very good reason for the Queen Anne legs though not sure why this has happened.
The springer does indeed originate from the cocker, in fact my understanding is that springers were just larger cockers until they were recognised as the Norfolk spaniel?
http://www.ariel-ess.com/essfaq/history.html
The size is as quoted here ''By 1800, three general classifications were established: cockers, used for woodcock weighed up to 25 lbs. Larger dogs, 17-18 inches tall and weighing 35 to 45 lbs. were field or English spaniels. These included springers, field, Sussex, and the Clumber. Miniature, or toy, spaniels fancied by King Charles and the Duke Norfolk, were called "Comforters".
An interesting article, especially the description page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Springer_Spaniel
Originally Posted by Shona
im no expert on springers, but I do have concerns given what you have said that some springers may well be out there doing a days work, being allowed to do it becase they are stoic dogs,
surely it would be better to breed, conformationaly correct dogs that will be pain free doing a days work?
I agree, structure is important to maintain a healthy working frame.
You will Know Shona, any horse that has poor conformation (legs) will suffer far more injuries and ailments that one that is structurally sound...so why would it be different fo ra dog that is in a high energy job.
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
but how do you know they're in pain?? if they are keen to do the work and show no ill effects from it, all i can say on the Queen Anne legs is that the one dog we had through rescue who's legs were really bad, when checked by the vet he said to leave well alone as it wasn't bothering him
So its OK for someone to breed these dogs , because they show no pain wqwhen working...
Can you imagine the outcry you would get if you said that about some pedigree breeds.
Originally Posted by Pidge
No one was suggesting Springers with Queen Anne are 'normal', just that this deformity (I think I'm OK to say that as it isn't normal) doesn't stop most dogs with it from living a normal life. It's a general statement as some are affected by it, some are not but there isn't a person on this board who would say it's preferable.
There are also many different stages of Carpal Varus.
they will be living a normal life for whats normal to them.. not to mention he fact that many Springer's you see with Queen Ann legs are pets, and would never do a 10th of the work a working dog does.
Here we are excusing the deformities in the Springer , because they dont show pain... yet will condemn any other breeds with what some class as deformities as shameful.
Would it not be better for the working Springer to be bred for "fit for purpose" as the saying goes.
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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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20-01-2010, 05:11 PM
That is if you believe the pro dockers.
Better to try and breed a shorter tail and shorten the ears more so less ear problems.
rune
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
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20-01-2010, 05:29 PM
It is not right that working springers can get health defects, it's not right that show springers get health defects (or any other breed for that matter), but it happens. Woody (worker) has mild MRD, Isla (show type) has a congenital eye defect (Rips is doing the right thing by not breeding from her - such a shame!!) so either can get it. Yes, it seems workers are worse and worker breeders are less likely to health check but what is this knowledge proving? Either way health checks need to become mandatory and breeders need to ALL adhere to sensible breeding.
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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20-01-2010, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by rune
LOL----so the ears need to be set low because someone decided it looked better---maybe the reason working dogs are set higher is because it is more practical and they don't get the ear problems as badly.
As to the last remark---yes I can---springers do!
rune
Your final remark leaves me somewhat disappointed, disappointed because I feel you actually think its right.
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Location: Nottingham
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,477
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20-01-2010, 05:38 PM
With the OH being a falconer, he's always had dogs from working lines e.g his mate has a good bitch and his mates mate has a good dog so they pair them up and sell the pups on to folk they know. I can vouch for the fact that no health testing is done on these dogs and it's not something my OH feels is important. As long as the dog is a hard hunter, thats all that matters. The dam of his current dog died of cancer at a young age, Millie has no hip scores or anything and yet he wants to breed from her because she hunts well.
Fortunately, in the GWP world, most kennels produce dual purpose dogs. The top kennels like Bryantscroft, Bareve, Kimmax etc make sure their dogs are of show and work quality. I hope that a divide never arises in this breed (hopefully it wont as they arent an overly popular breed anyway).
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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20-01-2010, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Pidge
I'll say it again, I don't give a flying <insert chosen rude word> whether it's bad show breeder, or bad worker breeder they are still a bad breeder.
It is not right that working springers can get health defects, it's not right that show springers get health defects (or any other breed for that matter), but it happens. Woody (worker) has mild MRD, Isla (show type) has a congenital eye defect (Rips is doing the right thing by not breeding from her - such a shame!!) so either can get it. Yes, it seems workers are worse and worker breeders are less likely to health check but what is this knowledge proving? Either way health checks need to become mandatory and breeders need to ALL adhere to sensible breeding.
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Location: Yorkshire, UK
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,890
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20-01-2010, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
Show pet Basset hounds dont go out to do a days work on a shoot.
And the working packs of Bassets are completey different to the show/pet type,
I wonder why...!
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Location: cheshire, uk
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,513
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20-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by rune
I don't think many people who seriously work sheep are going to worry one iota if the dog is KC standard or not---why should they? It is the show people who need to prove a point.
Totally agree with Tassle about Celt, show bred and a real handfull
Working springer enthusiasts wouldn't give a show type house room. Again why should they, their dogs do what they want them to and they aren't worried what they look like.
Dog showing is on a par with baby shows to many people who do work their dogs.
I can't believe people are defending the way bulldogs are nowadays.
rune
first of all, yes i did defend the bulldog. im not naive and i know that they are from perfect and ALOT are unhealthy, but not all of them, and i didnt like the fact that you were generalising about all of them.
as for showing.... im quite offended you have said it is like a baby show. i dont parade my dog around for people too co over, i do it because its something fun i can do with my dog. if she could work then i would do that with her, but seeing as her job is a hot water bottle (which she does quite nicely) or to be eaten (which to be honest im not trying) when i started showing, she was too small to do agility, im starting agility with her soon. so as for showing, i do it because she enjoys it and i do. not because im some overbearing mum who wants to brag.
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