I don't think many people who seriously work sheep are going to worry one iota if the dog is KC standard or not---why should they? It is the show people who need to prove a point.

Totally agree with Tassle about Celt, show bred and a real handfull

Working springer enthusiasts wouldn't give a show type house room. Again why should they, their dogs do what they want them to and they aren't worried what they look like.

Dog showing is on a par with baby shows to many people who do work their dogs.

I can't believe people are defending the way bulldogs are nowadays.

rune

Ah, but what is the reason for health defects cropping up in the workers?

Agree with your last paragraph entirely.

Bernese have been bred far too big and suffer with bad joint problems in back and front legs----so it is no surprise that they have that age. Great Danes 'look ' ok and also have a low age expectancy.

It isn't just how a dog looks---that is a mistake many show people make, it is the 'hidden' problems which are bred in in the quest for a specific look as well.

rune

I would imagine small gene pools, farmers etc seeing no need to look far afield for mates for their dogs and not needing the dogs to live to a great age.

Etta is also not always recognised as a springer---and we are loused out with them down here. It seems to be a size thing.

rune

Because most breeders of working gundogs dont bother with any health tests, along with a very small breeding programme.

Yet the show breeder is the one who gets all the criticism..

You only have to look at the diversity of the "springer" small, large, queen Anne legs to point out a few.

Yet it is argued they are a better example of the breed. did you not say, that a show springer could not do a days work, well sorry Pidge, the Springer with the bowed legs and no health tests, is more likey to be the one who suffers with joint problems.

But then the owner who works the dog may not expect a long life out of his dog , and just move onto the next one...

I never said that. I don't know enough about this to ever make a statement like that. I think you have me confused with someone else.

Not sure if I would believe that working gundog breeders do not do any health tests. They certainly should and I am sure a lot of them do have health tests done before they breed. The gundogs bred for the Sandringham Estate for example

I'm gunna re-post a section from another thread because it's also relevant to this (something in the air today I think).

We researched ESS' and planned Woody for a year yet we ended up with a KC registered, pedigree dog from a KC accredited breeder (first litter) who has an hereditary health defect!

I blame myself every day for this because I feel there was more I should have done to prevent it and that by buying him from them (crappy breeders who I thought were great at the time) I have contributed to something I feel quite strongly about - poor, careless, thoughtless breeding.

So, I would never blame the show breeder and I would never suggest the worker is better in terms of health and longevity.

As for the worked dog being easily disposed of, not to me. If it was up to me I would have Woody last a life time but if he goes early because he's from working stock then there is nothing I personally can do about it.

Show, worker, dual, pedigree, mongrel I don't care, the most important thing to me is that all breeders are focusing solely on the health and longevity of the breed, not the appearance of it.

don't beat yourself up, Meg is a farm bred working springer no papers nada, cracking working dog though, and no she won't be going anywhere when she's retired, we'll just get a pup from one of the working kennels that does health check and i know a few

Totally agree with you Pidge, but as you know within litters some pups will do better health-wise than others. By all breeders (working and show) subscribing to doing health tests and only breeding from the best available, they can try to eliminate health problems, but I think there will always be exceptions. The litter of perfect pups has never been born (neither has there been a perfect human bred - and look at us we are a mixed lot. We don't usually do any screening when we select a partner to have children with, unless there is a known serious reason for doing so).