Shadow Boxer
May I just enquire - what are the problem behaviours which necessitate the use of an electric collar, and which cannot be overcome by other means?

Trouble 21
so again specifically what behaviour would be corrected that can not be corrected by other means?

Clob
Fair questions but one I don’t have time for a detailed and lengthy reply and I know a lot of people ( including me if I were exposed to it for the first time ) would not understand a simple reply. Maybe the best way to answer it is over a few posts so what you don’t understand you can ask step by step, instead of all the pointless ramblings going on, also it brings the posts back on topic, which is OC theory.

1]
There are 2 categories of e-collars, limited use and e-training collars, I use e-training collars. Limited use collars have below 16 levels generally but there is an intermediate collar which has 12 levels and I find it’s an excellent collar which could be used as a full training aid rather than for some limited uses.

The misconception about modern e-collars is inherent in the question(s) above, modern e-collars are not just for problem solving, that generation of collars is obsolete since 1998, 8 years ago.

2]
The problems which have been inherent in formal obedience training have been there since dogs became domesticated are that behaviour was not shaped properly in the formal obedience training stage, if it had been there is still one problem left in all mammals, that of sensory narrowing.

The other problem specifically to dogs is that anyone teaching a pet dog owner must have a method which that individual pet owner and that individual dog will be able to successfully apply.

The combination of failing to shape behaviours correctly in the first stage of formal obedience combined with the sensory narrowing activity has killed more animals & people in normal everyday situations than any other two factors.

There are 3 stages of training dogs.
1. Teaching.
2. Teaching corrections.
3. Teaching corrections with distractions.

Quiet dogs which readily comply only need stage one, stage 2 is usually best started at around 7-9 months in many males ( flexibility is needed on this) and after the first season in bitches.

Relevant to the questions asked are these and more factors specifically related to operant theory which most people have rammed into them by some trainers ( to add, I never do that ).

All 4 parts of operant theory can be consistently applied, under all conditions including timing, distance, distractions and everything else in the environment. For the first time in the history of canines with an e-training collar, that has never been possible before and that was an inherent training problem since Neanderthal times, so an e-training collar can provide the following at any point in time

Positive Punishment = something/anything added = decreases behaviour

Negative Punishment = something/anything is removed/witheld = decreases behaviour

Positive Reinforcement = something/anything added = increases behaviour

Negative Reinforcement = a non appetitive stimulus is removed = increases behaviour

As I said, when I was training pet dog owners I never use these terms but looking at the posts here and what I meet in parks etc pet owners are bombarded with the terms at a lot of training classes.

My principle method of use is as a negative reinforcer which gives a consistent positive reinforcer, under all circumstances and range every time = 100% consistency in applying a positive reinforcer and at the same time resolving the problem of sensory narrowing.

Therefor, useing an e-training collar in the formal obedience training stage shapes behaviours correctly in the first place, it is failing to shape the behaviours correctly in the first place which causes problem.

There is only one behaviour you are actually shaping and that is that the dog responds to a command under all circumstances, including distance and any distractions at any point in time. With most of the high drive dogs people will encounter sensory narrowing that is also overcome by useing the collar as a distraction, that in turn opens the senses to your own command stimulus.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/FoodRefu.htm


Yep, would think that would teach the dog food refusal. Take it that 'tickling 'em' into submission doesn't work for this particular trick

Brierley
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/FoodRefu.htm
Yep, would think that would teach the dog food refusal. Take it that 'tickling 'em' into submission doesn't work for this particular trick

Clob
Says page not found, what was it one of your 1 in 20 million once every every 20 year period failings?

Er, how do you make that out? Scientifically that does not stand up, no matter what you've been reading.

Negative reinforcement does not give a postive reinforcement. Yes the dog gets relief as it has avoided something unpleasant, but scientifically that isn't positive reinforcer. Dearie me

Wiziwig
but scientifically that isn't positive reinforcer.

Clob
Yes it is, I havent read it anywhere, I understand the theory -

So many untruths told with so much sugar from electric collar supporters isnt there, and a little tweaking of the goalposts from time to time too... dearie me

This second quote is best as it's more up to date.

http://siriusdog.com/articles/food-r...aining-dog.htm

Just zap the dog (I'd definitely call this zapping) at a very high level 3 times and yes, it should work.

Poor dog.

Oh purlease, you are wrong. I would suggest more study

Clob you have taken my reply out of context and used your selected portion to berate me and remind all of us what pure genuis we are dealing with

CLOB
– Just read back to the text paper I posted (and wrote) at the link below if cant be bothered doing that then you should not post here all your achieving is spreading your own Edwardian era ignorance like desease.

Did they have E collars in the edwardian era then ??? as for not posting I don't think that is up to you Clob,

CLOB
Taking into account that you are probably much younger than me I think that for your generation you very backwards in the acceptance the massive technological progress of the late 20th and 21st century.

Really you have managed to ascertain that from the fact that I stated that e collars are designed to shock and or cause pain, so they don't emit an electrical impulse?

CLOB
I know lots of younger people and they are all for technological progress and love it all, I just see them as modern people, you just seem stuck in another century, can I ask, without intending to be offensive, are you from a poor background where modern radios, mobiles, satalite dishes, PC's & upgrades etc etc were not available?


I think that you are old enough and intelligent enough to know that is irrelevant to the subject, familairity with technology and technological advances is not the same as a discussion about wether E collars are appropriate in place of more familiar and equally succesful training methods.
However I will answer you as I'm sure you will manipulate a lack of response to suit your own purposes.. In a word no, I am not from a "poor background" and as for " not intending to be offensive" of course you were! the tone of your whole reply is one of superiority and intolerance, you posted 6 paragraphs in response to me, 4 of which have "snipey" little remarks!

Your tone regarding what could be a very interesting subject is, in my opinion, very distracting for people who may be trying to learn something, many people log in to DW including lots of 1st time dog owners and they are going to run a mile from Ecollars just on the strength of this thread and it's tone!

Rachel

Still don't see how or why that can't be taught without the e-collar. you can teach a dog to eat only on a specific command. I'm certainly no techno-phobe, as for age is that relevant as we have no idea how old you are clob.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle2.htm

Try this one!