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Apache
Dogsey Senior
Apache is offline  
Location: Cheshire, UK
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 531
Male 
 
29-05-2014, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by SarahJade View Post
I quite like the BAT training although what I took away from the lecture with Grisha Stewart was it was very similar to the desensitisation I was already doing.
It was a couple of years ago now and I really enjoyed meeting her and listening to her ideas.
How does the desensitization work and how does it differ from BAT?
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PONlady
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Location: Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire
Joined: Mar 2006
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Female 
 
01-06-2014, 04:47 PM
I could have this wrong, I am rather new to this BAT idea, but I think desensitisation involves gently exposing your dog to the trigger over and over again, (the trigger perhaps getting closer or doing more scary things each time) whilst encouraging your dog to offer alternative behaviour you have previously taught it in a calmer environment, ie, a sit, and/or a look-at-you, (which you might reward with click-treat).

BAT looks at what the dog wants to achieve by the current behaviour (ie, Get That Dog Away From Me!!) and you slowly teach him he can achieve that same outcome with a much safer, quieter, less 'energy-expensive' response than "bark, lunge, growl, bite". It's called a 'functional' reward (usually, you take your dog away from the trigger that makes him react, to a point where he's relaxed again)

You don't direct your dog or give him an alternative command, like 'down' or 'look at me' with BAT. The dog chooses the alternative behaviour by itself, you just let him know that you've correctly understood his body-language, ie, dog halts, ears pricked, eyes fixed on the trigger - you move your dog in the opposite direction.

Using treats adds a 'double whammy' reward - he gets what he wanted (move away) AND he gets yummies, woohoo, win-win! It helps him remember next time that turning back the way he came is a good thing.

Using treats as a distraction (ie, to keep your dogs attention on you) isn't really part of BAT, but it can help in certain situations. For example, on holiday I found myself on a path I couldn't step off, one dog following behind (which Esau hadn't noticed) and another one coming towards us. My dog's worst nightmare - both were dark coloured Labradors! I started giving Esau treats, one after the other - he was so busy snuffling them up he didn't even notice the other dog going past, phew! Crisis averted . . He didn't learn anything because he didn't see the other dog, but we did avoid the head-on nightmare at least.

Sadly the path got busier and the situation became impossible to distract him from, so he did start reacting, and I noticed once he'd done it the once, it seemed to tip him into over-drive, he was doing it with every dog he noticed. This is called "trigger stacking" - your dog needs time to calm down after a stressful encounter, and if hasn't had that opportunity he'll react much faster to the next one.

He completely tuned out from us, ignoring even treats, so there was nothing we could do at the time except shorten his lead and warn other dog owners to keep as wide a berth as they could, and get him back to the car ASAP. After a few hours to relax in familiar surroundings again, he was 're-set' and able to cope with another 'I see a dog' situation without going into meltdown.

It might be of interest to say here that because we recognised what was happening, my husband and I both remained calm and philosophical about it; we didn't yell at Esau or freeze him out in disgust at his behaviour. He wasn't rewarded for the reactivity either, of course - but perhaps because we were calmer, he recovered faster?

We've used both BAT and desensitisation, as well as blatant distraction, depending on the situation we have found ourselves in at the time. I understand that BAT means he learns how to cope FOR HIMSELF, regardless of what I say/do, so that's the most preferable technique in my view, but the other two both help as well, and can't really do any harm!
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Imana-Banana
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Location: Hatfield, UK
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02-06-2014, 08:47 AM
I think that is the inherent problem with some techniques that require distance when you have a reactive dog, sometimes you find yourself in a situation you just can't get out of and have to do whatever you can to help. I have often used food to distract Ima if we are in such close quarters and if she hasn't seen the other dog she will happily stuff her face and be non the wiser

Well done for staying calm once cornered you see so many owners making it so much worse by yanking, shouting and hitting their dog when the poor thing is already hysterical. Good luck with your training I am sure you will get there in the end
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PONlady
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Location: Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 426
Female 
 
02-06-2014, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Imana-Banana View Post
I think that is the inherent problem with some techniques that require distance when you have a reactive dog, sometimes you find yourself in a situation you just can't get out of and have to do whatever you can to help. I have often used food to distract Ima if we are in such close quarters and if she hasn't seen the other dog she will happily stuff her face and be non the wiser

Well done for staying calm once cornered you see so many owners making it so much worse by yanking, shouting and hitting their dog when the poor thing is already hysterical. Good luck with your training I am sure you will get there in the end
Thanks so much! It's great to get a bit of encouragement!
((Hugs)).

I have to admit, in times past, we WOULD have yelled at Esau, hauled him back by his collar, and probably frozen him out by ignoring him afterwards, too Partly in embarrassment in front of other dog-owners who looked at us with deep disapproval as 'bad' owners . . We felt we had to show we were not indifferent and we wouldn't let our dog behave like that without a scolding!

Now of course I know how pointless that reaction is, and it's a much better 'face-saving' response to apologise to other owners for Esau's outburst and explain he's in training, but obviously we'd asked a bit too much of him that time.

I can imagine that if I hadn't had the understanding the behaviourist gave us, I would have driven back from that episode in tears, probably believing I could never walk him in public again, maybe even considering having him PTS because I would have taken his escalated behaviour as proof he was getting worse. I would definitely have felt like a dismal failure!

Yesterday, my husband took him out on the meadow near our house, and they came across a few loose dogs. He said Esau glanced at them, then ignored them, of his own accord. Only once did he need a slight tug on the long line to get his attention - and that was when a pair of barking greyhounds were tearing towards him at speed. He did turn away, no barking, and later my husband said he heard the greyhounds snarling and barking with another loose dog so it sounds as if that was a lucky escape!

Yeay! We are getting there!
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