Well, then say no growling. No warning is vastly different.

Yes, my fault for not being clear about the context.

On another thread there was some discussion about a dog that had been attacked. The owner of the dog felt that the attacking dog had attacked without warning because it's owner had told it off for growling.

I'm quite sure what she meant was that the dog skipped the step of telling the other dog "get lost or else" and went straight in for the attack. Yes there would have been signs but nothing that the owners and the attacked dog had time to respond to.

And my point is that there are lots of reasons why dogs attack without warning (in this context of the word 'warning').

Sorry for the confusion

Yes, my fault for not being clear about the context.

On another thread there was some discussion about a dog that had been attacked. The owner of the dog felt that the attacking dog had attacked without warning because it's owner had told it off for growling.

I'm quite sure what she meant was that the dog skipped the step of telling the other dog "get lost or else" and went straight in for the attack. Yes there would have been signs but nothing that the owners and the attacked dog had time to respond to.

And my point is that there are lots of reasons why dogs attack without warning (in this context of the word 'warning').

Sorry for the confusion

There will have been a warning though, it's just that thehuman's haven't picked up on it...a signal for a dog in this context is a warning.There will have been something.

I do tend to think that in normal circumstances a 'normal' dog is resiliant enough not to become reactive.

I'll tell the whole story with my dog as it might be helpful to someone else. I'm still not certain I've completely got to the bottom of things but we seem to be doing very well in recent weeks.

Our oldest adored playing with other dogs. She'd run chase and playfight endlessly. She just couldn't get enough. We used to meet up with a group of dogs and owners in a huge, safe meadow in our local park. She adored it. And we loved to watch her. All the dogs were nice and the dog owners responsible. The dogs were always supervised and things were never allowed to get out of hand. I trusted our girl completely around other dogs. She always knew how to behave and was NEVER bothered by other dogs...even badly behaved or unstable dogs. It was the perfect lifestyle for a Beagle. She'd already started a few doggy activities which she adored and every day she got to run free and play....doing the things that Beagles were bred to do.

When she was a year old we got our second dog. We were so careful over the introductions. They were always supervised. They each had loads of separate quality time with us. They bonded well. But there were upsets...

Beagles are terrible chewers, but our girl NEVER swallowed things. She'd destroy and spit out. Within days of the puppy ariving she's started to gulp things down. Within three weeks of having the puppy she was getting stomach surgery to remove a foreign body from her stomach. For a couple of months after surgery it was a full time job trying to make sure she didn't pick up anything in the park and swallow it. She even started stealing things out of the pockets of passers by and swallowing them. We assumed it was a reaction to having to share with the new puppy.

Her off-lead training went down the tubes. If we called her to us whilst out in the park with a group of dogs she'd start sniffing the ground and wander off. Then she'd take off on a Beagle-only adventure with our pup dissapearing out of sight for 10 minutes at a time.

We were forced to keep them away from the group and work hard on training. These habits could get her (or both of them) killed.

Our goal was to get them back playing with the group of dogs in the meadow. That's what they loved. It was a Beagles dream life.

It was during these training sessions (in the same meadow) that we 'created' the aggression problem. We assumed that she was enjoying the training so much that she didn't want other dogs butting in. I'd say it developed over a period of several months. Always spaced weeks or months apart, and always something that you could explain away. It was provoked.

At some point I remember noticing that she was very submisive when she met other dogs. But once the greeting was over she was her normal, boistrous, confident self. I assumed it was just good doggy manners. But I do recall that over the months people would frequently comment "Oh, what's the matter with her!" or "poor thing, she's frightened". I always answered "She's fine - she always does that but as soon as the greeting is over she's full of confidence". I thought nothing of it at the time.

We also started to notice some other little signs that something wasn't right. When Beagle racing (her once favorite sport) started up in the spring she 'told off' a couple of once best buddies. Just a mild little "get lost", but they did nothing wrong. She was being touchy. Racing had been heavily pulicised (largely by me!) and we had lots of new dogs. Some were a bit unruly, but basically nice dogs. On the track they sometimes wanted to play instead of chase the lure. Our girl was deadly serious about the sport and didn't take kindly to this. She wasn't aggressive, but would run back to the start line to me when they jostled her. This was SO out of character. She was always a tough little cookie that loved nothing more than a bit of good old rough and tumble with ANY dog! Eventually we stopped letting her race as we felt it was bad for her. But none of the other dogs had a problem with it.

I think there were a couple of other little incidents in varous places that just didn't seem quite right. All things that most people would say "My dogs do that all the time - don't worry about it!". But it was out of character for my dog. Something was going very wrong.

Always you could blame it on the other dog. She NEVER started anything. The most recent incidents seemed the worst because we'd had no problem for weeks on end and we though the problem was solved. We were passing through the meadow and as our girl had been so good I let her have a play with a group of old pals that were there. She tried to start a chase and picked up a toy. The other dogs couldn't keep up so she kept getting closer and giving them chances. Then one of them got close and all hell broke loose - they were snarling and rolling about. We pulled them apart quick. The other dog was fine but ours had some little nicks on her. I appologised profusely - I couldn't believe it but it really seemed that our girl had engineered the whole situation to cause a fight. She enticed the other dog to get close and then turned on it.

The next day we walked through the same spot. There were a couple of aquantances there. I explained what had happened the day before and asked people if they minded if I let her off-lead. They were fine with it. One little dog kept pestering her to play. I assumed that eventually she'd be up for it. But instead she turned on him snarling. We had a hard time pulling them apart, but again there was no damage done. I was horified! This dog had done nothing wrong but pester her to play. We had an aggresive dog. I couldn't believe it.

Trainers that knew her insisted she wasn't aggresive. It must be the other dogs they said. There's something you're missing. She is NOT in any way shape or form an aggresive dog. I wasn't convinced.

A few days later we went to an activity and the little dog that she'd had the first 'fight' with with was there. The dog had a HUGE problem. She was snarling at everything that came within 10 yards of her. A real problem. I was informed that this wasn't out of character for her. I'd assumed that my girl had started tje fogjt but almost certainly it had been the other way around having seen the way this dog was behaving. The owner neglected to mention this when I was appologising so much!

Assuming that she'd been attacked the day before whilst trying to play it's hardly surprising that she turned on a dog that was pestering her the very next day at the very same spot.

Anyway, at this point we decided that our goal of getting her 'back playing in the meadow with the pack' was out of the question. We started taking them to other parks with fewer dogs. Within days she was a different dog. Much more relaxed and not running off when off-lead. She was no longer submissive when she met other dogs. She'll tollerate pestering. Even when we do go somewhere with lots of dogs she's fine with it. We haven't had a problem in ages.

My conclusion is that we 'over socialised' her. She adored playing with other dogs and we'd made sure we gave her ample opportunity to play with doggy pals. Her life was wonderful. When we got the new pup she still had that active social life, but instead of coming home to a quiet house and mum and dad she was coming home to a boistrous, pesky puppy that was getting a share of HER things! We were so fixated on keeping her with the group because we thought she loved it when in fact all the signs were telling us "I don't want to be with all these dogs".

The sports and conrolled activities she's fine with - she gets to hang out with dogs she knows but they don't get to pester her. The occasional doggy gathering is fine. But she doesn't want dogs in her face day in and day out on her daily walks. She'd probably still be fine with it if she didn't have another dog at home. But she's got a stable pack and she loves her pesky little brother. She doesn't need anything from other dogs and so the negatives outweight the positives for her. She only wants them in small doses.

Anyway, my point for bringing up the subject was just as an idea for Ben McFuzzylugs to consider (trying too hard to socialise??). She knows her dog best but sometimes I find that a comment or idea from someone else can make me realise that there's something i've missed. Other time I just think they're just talking crap

It was me!!
The dog in that past had barked and growld at Mia and had been told off for that
So for the past few months she had not uttered a peep towards Mia - but clearly she was on a knife edge ...

.....

When the pair first met they both barked at each other
Lucy was told off and straight away she stopped barking when she met Mia - Lucys owner thought she had done a good job of fixing the problem

...

Lucy had stopped barking at Mia but her mindset towards Mia haddnt changed - the problem wasnt fixed it was just hidden

...

I also find many owners now don`t recognise the difference between an altercation (fairly frequent, ranging from a hard look to handbags flying with lots of bluster) and an actual attack.

But even with these dogs, it is not really a fight - it is for the most part a ritual. When you consider the damage they can do with one bite, a real fight would result in copious amount of spilled blood.

A good little book which relates to some of this is "Stress in Dogs" an interesting and useful read .

The authors believe that stress can be caused not only by what we'd call stressful situations, but by some things that many of us would not recognise as stress, eg active dogs can get very stressed.

I'd stress myself that everything in the book must be taken in context and not generalised too much, but it is a good read and makes some very useful observations on modern day dog ownership IMO:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stress-Dogs-.../dp/1929242336

Wys
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