Submissive Peeing

I apologise if this is in the wrong area but wasn't sure what it would come under.

This is a bit long winded but I feel the more detailed info I give perhaps the better advice I will get. I have posted this on other forums & not one single person has been able to offer advice.

Ok when my male was a small pup like all pups he used to get excitement pee. After he turned 6 months this stopped.

My male is very exciteable & gets very giddy when we get visitors & often jumps up, I have tried many different methods to try & prevent jumping up with no luck so I decided to try distraction techniques where by when someone came in when he ran over to them just before he could jump I would call him over to me & give him lots of praise for coming & repeat everytime he went running over to jump up. Unfortunatly every 3rd or 4th time I would call him back he would get to me & wet himself, I was told it was submissive peeing & to keep doing what I was doing & just ignore it (not tell him off for it & with time it would go away) it didn't go away so I stopped using that method & it stopped.

He has developed a fear of our meter rule! the only time I ever get it out is to see how high he is standing every couple of months but has taken to cowering an wetting himself when you go near him with it (he has never had a bad experience with it (I just put it next to him see where he comes up to & put it away) but figured its not like we measure him often so no big deal.

Now as some of you will know my bitch came into season just almost 3 weeks ago, in the past week he eather won't come when you call him for wanting to be near her in which case I slowly just walk over to get him by the coller to gently lead him away to where ever I want him, he has now started cowering if I go over to him & peeing, if he does come I praise him lots but again if I go to reach for his coller he wets himself, so I have been trying to temp him to where I want him with treats & praise but it doesn't always work as he can be very stubborn in which case I have no choice to go over & get him, but like I said my bitch being in heat is obviously a distraction & I have just ignored his peeing so he doen't see me going to get him with being told off, & then go clean it up when hes out of the way.

Then a few days ago I was about to take him out & as usual he bounced around like a maniac so I just stood & waited till he calmed down then got him to sit, as I went to put his head coller on he wet himself, I ignored it not making a fuss as we were outside anyway. When we got to the vet to get him weighed I asked for him to be looked at as I was concearned that he was a bit too skinny (but I was told after he was looked at & been gone over by hand that he is absolutly fine) problem is when the lady went to go over him he cowered slightly & wet himself (which is suprising as hes used to being gone over as I show him).

Yesterday he did it again, he went in my bitches crate & I was accross the room, I said 'out' & he came straight out so I said good boy in a light happy tone & he came tottering over wagging his tail as if to say yay I'm such a good boy, I bent down giving him loads of affection stroking him telling him what a good boy he was then suddenly whilst I was doing this he started cowering & pee'd on me! I put him outside & went & changed my clothes, why oh why!!!

This is unusual behaviour for him, he is so out going normally, he loves people & normally loves being approached & petted & being made a fuss of, he laps up the attention. Hes not got a medical problem & the cowering to me indicates fear but I don't understand why, especially this last week where everything seems to be setting him off.

Can anyone advise on what could have suddenly brought this on?

What can I do to improve things?

Could my bitch being in heat be affecting him in this way with all the hormones flying around?

I am with my dogs almost 24/7 and as far as I know he has had no sudden bad experiences that could account for this behaviour.

Please help, thanks for your advice in advance.

P.S In case it helps he 16 months old.

Aw how difficult for you all.
If he's a sensitive boy he could be reacting to your tone of voice???? (Guessing)
If I were you I think the first thing i'd do is get a urine sample checked, it could be he has an infection or prostate problem (did they check his prostate at the vet???) I think, before you can work out why he's like this (and I'm sure close proximity to a bitch in season ain't helping!!!) he needs his prostate and urine checking.

My old, entire BC had prostate trouble that made him pee when he didn't realise...he had no idea he was doing it, BUT was awre something wasn't quite right, so to speak, so wasn't happy as it happened (it may actually have been painful although I'm not sure) anyway, this problem was made worse if there was a bitch in heat as the smell of the bitch increased his hormone output, which made his prostate worse, sounds like your dog could be similar and so your first port of call should probably be your vet for a thorough checkover.
Good luck hope i've helped a little, I'm sure someone else will be along with a more sound idea of why this may be happening...
Ailsa x

Hi Angelmist I will add a few observations based on your post , it is rather long so forgive the 'short' answers, they are not criticism ...Firstly your dog has just been through what is know as ''The Second Fear Imprint Period'' which occurs between 6 to 14 months, during this time dogs can become fearful of new and even familiar situations,you need to be very patient, always treat the new situations in a matter of fact/bright way, never force the dog to confront them, this should be done in its own time,don't use sympathetic tones either you will be praising/encouraging the fearful behaviour .

In first part of your post, the 'peeing when a puppy' indicates to me that your dog had a tendency to nervousness which he overcame but it returned with TSFIS.

My heart always sinks when I read 'we have tried many methods' , I think all to often people try too many methods and never give one a chance to work so the dog becomes throughly confused and gets mixed messages,I would stick to one good method and be consistent.They don't work overnight it often takes weeks .

In a dog that has a tendency to get too excited calm is the word. For an over excitable/nervous puppy I would put it on a lead when visitors come, put it in the sit position and ask dog friendly visitors to crouch down and speak to the puppy. Passed the puppy stage the best solution to jumping up is turn away and ignore the behaviour, no word or eye contact until the dog is quiet. .

The meter rule was best not used at this time if it caused fear, not sure why the dog needs to be repeatedly measured ?

Is he neutered , if not being near a bitch in season will be torment for him , even if he is neutered it can take many months for the influence of male hormones to decrease and being near a bitch in season can cause a dog to lose weight.

Good general training can help nervous dogs, so I would give your dog lots of short training sessions with plenty of of praise and rewards for small tasks completed to increase his confidence .... and get him away from the bitch in season...


This is a general article on desensitising nervous dogs. If you are really concerned and unable to tackle the behavioural problem yourself it might be a good idea to ask the vet for a referral to a good behaviourist

http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=8050

Thanks for you replys.

Ailsa he has not had his urine tested, the vet has said its very likely its just hormones (with it mainly being this week it has been common) & that I shouldn't worry unless it continues to be frequent well after her season has finished.

Mini as for my trying many methods, I know too many methods can cause confusion especially if each is not given a good chance, when I say about having used many methods I mean each method has been given months to see a difference, I would have thought that if you don't see any improvement after about 3 months using one consistant method then its not likely to work (I'm not just talking a few days or weeks before deciding its not working).

For his jumping I've tried walking away & ignoring, it improved but only with me & my partner he still jumps at visitors & anyone who comes over to stroke him whilst we're out & this has been hard to correct as no matter how many times we ask people before they come in to just ignore him, not to speak to him or look at him they still do no matter how many times I keep saying just ignore him till I'm blue in the face. As for people when were out this usually stems from the hundreds of people who don't bother to ask if they can stroke him (for those who do I make him sit first) will just come over and start fussing him or trying to puposly distract him whilst were walking past which results in him getting giddy & jumping up & the annoying people who when he jumps up & I give the command to get down they reply with oh its ok I don't mind (well I do & I say as much & it usually ends up in a long drawn out argument with idiots).

Also at home I have tried putting him on a lead and making him sit, only problem is he still gets giddy & he very strong so if he wants to go he will even if it means taking me with him. I have also tried putting him out of the way but where he can still see everyone & then waiting till he calms to let him through but as soon as he gets let in with everyone he imediatly gets silly again which results in me haveing to take him back out & try again after hes calmed again.

I have asked advice on his jumping problem before but never got a good awnser, my vet just says ignore which isn't working where everyone else is concerned & my dog trainer I used to have couldn't offer any better methods so if you have any, please share it would be very much appriciated.

I think you've had some great advice - one thing I'd add is, does he see ringcraft or showing as a positive experience? If not he may be starting to associate being touched with something he doesn't like...

If you think this may be the case don't despair, there are some trainers who will be able to hopefully improve on his fear.

Also, there is a possibility the behaviour may be associate with either pain (some vets may miss something related more to the structure of the dog - maybe a chiropractor would be of use here).

Lastly, another thought, but does he like his headcollar normally? as again, if he doesn't like this the problem may be extending to other things liike collar being taken.

Dogs can be desensitised to collar grabs etc, but you really need to find out what the underlying cause of this is...

Good luck

Thanks Wysiwyg, Yes I always make ringcraft a positive experience & yes he seems to enjoy it, if he didn't I wouldn't take him.

No he doesn't normally like wearing his head coller, we've only had it a few weeks so hes still getting used to it but he will normally sit & let you put it on its just once its on he doesn't like it, but good theory I never thought of that I will look into the idea of desensitising as you have mentioned.

I could be wrong, but I honestly dont think its pain related purely because if I leave him alone completely & only fuss him when he has chosen to come over and 'ask' for attention by sitting in front of me, pawing at me or licking & nuzzling me hes fine & doesn't mind being touched all over & being fussed or even me reaching for his coller, the problem occurs eather when I specifically call him to me but much more so if I am approaching him.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I will take all suggestions on board & start so see about gradually ruling each out one by one until the root cause is found.