Would you like me to use a prong collar for every single one of these tasks? If you have to stand there with a bag of bribes (oops, sorry, you call them treats) and a clicker to get a dog to do every one of these basic commands I'd personally call you a failure and recommend no-one ever bring a dog to you for any form of training. You'd be the reason R+ is a laughing stock in the professional training circles.


You show no understanding of the use of rewards.

Obviously you work for your employers for praise and a pat on the head----or maybe you are 'bribed' with some money?


LOL

rune

Sorry rune I don't agree with that statement at all from anyone who makes it & I have read it a few times. What about people who volunteer? They don't get paid but they still get satisfaction from their work, why can't dogs be the same? I will admit to giving a biscuit every once & a while at night after a great day & after they have eaten their dinners.

I like to think of my dogs as volunteers so without relying on treats I instead make the work fun for them.

There are a couple of flaws in this argument. People volunteer at jobs they want to do - in other words they pick and choose the type of work. Dogs don't get that choice and are often required to change their natural behaviour to suit our needs.

When we go out to earn a living - many don't enjoy being tied to a desk for x number of hours, taking abuse from irate customers, etc etc etc, but do so for the reward of the monthly pay cheque.

When working voluntarily, we choose the hours we work, we choose the type of work, we can skip hours when something crops up that we would rather do. Less likely when we know that our reward (pay) will be withdrawn if we do so.

BUT, when talking about training we are talking about something entirely different. We are talking about learning new skills. When learning, it goes faster and smoother if we get rewards as we go. For instance, if we are criticised for each mistake in the learning process, but not rewarded for 'getting it', we become miserable, frustrated and really just want to give up and walk away. However, if we are rewarded along the way and guided through whatever we are learning, we want to learn and do at a much faster rate

You really don`t get it, do you? Or maybe you do but enjoy an arguement.
Making training fun is rewarding. Therefore you are using a reward.
I train Daisy with play (not treats). Many people do. The fun (play) is the reward. Training by making an action self-rewarding is positive training. .

Did you choose your dogs - or did they volunteer to come and work for you?

Amusing. I'm sure that the "professional dog training circle" is quite on board with +R training. The best and smartest trainers, like Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller, and Jean Donaldson are +R trainers.

And anyone who thinks that treats are a bribe doesn't know the first thing about dog training.

Not read the whole thread but please remember dog dragoness that those of us who compete have very reliable and consistent dogs on the field without the need to "bribe" them with treats etc.

That is because toys and food are not allowed to be used, given or carried!

My dogs have thus been classically conditioned to expect a good time on the competition field and operant conditioned to expect to get "paid" at some point (usually in the car afterwards).

Dogs do not do things because of LOVE or because they "respect" the owner etc, they do things because they are obedient to the laws of learning and it is in their interests to do so.

You may poo pooh the use of treats but those people at the TOP of their trees ALL OVER THE WORLD, in Schutzhund, Working Trials, Obedience, HWTM etc use treats and many if not most are clicker trained.

But I prefer people who do NOT use treats, it means I have one less person I need to worry about beating!

Spot on Claire

It's funny how those that question the use of Pos Reinforcement often seem to use the "I don't want to stuff my dog full of treats" argument, or they should just do what I want them to because I'm the boss!

And anyone who does voluntary work knows full well that the sense of wellbeing, of a job well done, or the satisfcation of helping others less fortunate that yourself, is extremely rewarding

Yes I do not believe in altruism...........

But altruism plays a big part in animal & human behaviour ~ it can also be an evolutionary successful strategy. "The Selfish Gene" makes this quite apparent!