I'm in shock (owner hitting dog)

A bit of background

There's a couple up here with 5 collies, the wife (I'll call her Isla*) competes in obedience. I must admit it can be quite impressive seeing such control of the 5 dogs, and a lot of people are very impressed by it all - but I've also seen how the husband treats the dogs when they don't do as they're told, and it's not very nice (I'll just leave it at that).

There's a male owner (I'll call him Brian*), I tend to think of him as one of the more sensible owners up here. He got a collie (from rescue), ignored the gossip (re Locky attacking** dogs), we introduced the dogs no problems. I wouldn't say Brian actually trained his dog as such, it seems more a case of over time the dog learned how to behave - almost accidental training (if that makes sense).

Brian got a second dog (male) from the same rescue - which didn't learn how to behave - this second dog is quite energetic and full on. Again we introducd the dogs properly, no problems. He's had this second dog now for about 12 months, the dog is approx 20 months old now.

Brian then got a third collie. Seems to have had some training, lovely dog, no problems.

The second dog often ignores Brian. When it's time to go home, he stays just out of reach and darts off. Brian put a line on him (approx 1.5 m -not long enough imo) to help him get hold of the dog.


This morning

I met brian and his dogs this morning. At the time he decided to leave, the second started playing his usual games (due to a lack of training). Brian was getting more and more wound up as was going to be late for an appointment.

I took Bear's Kong on a rope, told him to leave it, and threw it to the dog. The dog picked it up, I then sent Bear to get it, they got into a game of tug.

I walked over, took hold of the dog and handed him to Brian.

The shocking bit

Brian put him on-lead, then shouted "Bad Dog" at him, and started hitting him with a plastic ball launcher. He managed to hit him twice (and these were full on physical stikes, not a "pretend" smack that I often see people do) before I managed to splurt out "Don't do that" stepping forward to put my hand between the launcher and the dog.

He stopped and stood up straight, and so I stepped back. Then he did exactly the same again. He shouted "Bad Dog", hit him once, I'm stepping forward saying "No" as he hit him a second time.

He stopped, looked at me, looked at the dog, shouted "Bad dog", jerked the lead, then hit him again !

I said "You shouldn't do that - you'll never get him to come back to you treating him like that."

He responded "Isla told me I've got to. She said I've been too nice to them and I've got to give him a hiding if he doesn't come back."

I was absolutely gobsmacked by this - Brian is one of the sensible ones! one of the ones that ignores the gossip - and all I managed was "Well that's not how to do it."

He said "No, I've been too soft with them and they'll never learn if I don't do this. Isla told me."

We sort of parted company, I was feeling quite surprised, shocked even, at how much this upset me.

So what do I do about it?

I could write to the rescue, but I don't think this will achieve anything positive - it will alienate me to Brian, and apart from that, I very much doubt the rescue that has given him three dogs, and where he helps out from time to time would take any notice (or even be able to act if they did).

I could just decide to stay away from him - but that won't help his dog.

I'm thinking of going round later this afternoon (give him some time to calm down). I've lent out "The Power of Positive Training", I could take him "The complete idiots guide" and try to convince him to read it, but that's a bit too far in the other direction ("Say No to No").

Anyone got any constructive ideas? Got a good book you'd like to donate that I can take him ? (Culture clash?).

I really am quite shocked by what I saw, especially given my opinion of him prior to this morning.


* All names have been changed.

** Locky didn't attack, but was reactive to dogs when we first got him.

oh no that doesnt sound good

could you not help with training when you are out with him? have you not got a long line you could lend him and help him start to get his recall under control with rewarding? if you could get the dog to come back to you for food, and show how much easier they will come for a reward, maybe he would be more inclined to listen to you? maybe suggest you just meet up with one of your dogs and the one of his thats being naughty?

I'd print out some articles for him to read - maybe SB's recall guide if she doesn't mind, maybe somewhere to buy a longer line (check the Ebay seller "rogers rugs and repairs" for cheap nylon longlines), and maybe a bit on why dominance-based training is outdated? He sounds like he's struggling and may appreciate the guidance. Offering to help with the recall would be a nice gesture too if you can spare the time.

He sounds a lot like my situation with Millie and me mum did the same thing with me she wouldnt shut up till I gave in agreed snacking Millie with a newspaper will be the best way to stop her bitting, did it work?? of course not!!

Mum wont listen to reason either she would rather pay a trainer £25 to tell her what ive been telling all along -.-


They sound like good people just need to be educated the right way about training dogs and what hitting can have a negative reaction ect

It sound like the wife bullied him into agreeing probably not intentionally but most likely like my mum wouldnt shut up till he agreed one things for sure a dog wont learn anything if it it masters are teaching it different methods of training.

I did say to him this morning that I've got a long line I'll give him.

I know that in the past he's made liver cake and used that. I could (and would) help him, but I don't want to be too pushy, and also it's a case of getting people to "put some time in with their dogs".

The biggest immediate obstacle, is that Isla - who competes in obedience - has "told me I must do it." Even though he's seen how good the recall of mine is (2 out of three - Locky is 12 now and a GSD/Husky x), he's convinced that this is the way forward.

What about arming yourself with some fresh, warm liver flapjack (I find it's a little more smelly than cake/biscuits - just make with oats, homemade chicken stock and liver - in the oven or microwave) and asking him to give you 10 minutes to prove you don't need to use physical punishment to train recall. I bet within 10 minutes you can at least get the foundations of recall in a quiet, low-distraction area and hopefully actually seeing how you do it will give him a starting point to work from. Maybe get him to buy a whistle to train recall from scratch as the dog has probably learnt to ignore his verbal command (or worse, learnt that it results in being hit)

Hi Michael,

I would maybe print some articles and let him know about this being a good place to find some reading recomendations http://www.apdt.co.uk/library_listing_books.asp

Bonding with your dog by Victoria Schade might be a good one as it would help to point out the difference reading his dog/breaking trust with his dog can make....(such as hitting the dog)
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor

and I have just read John Rodgersons Dogvinci Code which might be good for him (points out that they are emotional beings..)

the thing is if you can stay on amicable terms you have more chance of 'educating' him, perhaos offer to meet up and help him out with a technique such as clicker games if his OH wont allow training sessions with a different trainer/club etc?

I really want to know who isla is! What are her dogs called?

I've just been around to see him.

I gave him a harness for the dog & 2 lines, one approx 5 m, the other 10m.

I told him not to listen the "advice" he'd been given as this would ruin his relationship with the dog, that it can lead to an escalation in the level of (human) aggression, and that he'll be feeling like crap after each "incident".

I also told him that keeping the dog on lead until he "learns to behave" is a bad idea - a collie needs exercise, so use the harness and lines and let him go.

I gave him some advice on begining to train recall, offered to go and help him with training, told him of a local trainer who runs an excellent recall workshop, and offered to lend him some books.

I emphasised that he should ignore what he'd been told previously. He was very apologetic, but didn't seem overly eager to take me up on any of my offers (which I'm quite disappointed about tbh).

I'll see how it goes...

Oh dear, I can imagine how that upset you Michael, as it would have upset me, too.

The irony is that you can have dogs who are so afraid of their owners that they appear extremely obedient but you can sort of tell what the true situation is, usually, but studying them carefully.

This "Isla" and indeed Brian, are possibly in contravention of one of the animal acts - I am pretty sure it's actually illegal to I believe the term is "cruelly beat" an animal.

I hope you can some how sort this out. The thing is, his dog needs to be trained (so time put in specifically for this) and not just sort of recalled on a walk and then punished...

Also the dog may play "keep away" and then get punished even more severely and end up biting the hand that feeds him, litrally.

Don't know if this is any good:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/im...punishment.php

Wys
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