Soooo, if Weims mainly point and retrieve and don`t go in to the sort of cover where Spniels are allegedly at higher risk, why are Weims docked at all then...:smt077

Because they look so much nicer....

I'M JOKING!

I was talking about the long haired weimies, hence why they have a longer dock than the shorthaired. Both are all rounders but SOME owners of longies like to keep them for mainly retrieving because of their long coats. After all longies weren't always recognised, the weimaraner was bred initially for it's short coat, longies are just sometimes thrown in litters. I don't really take much of a vested interest in longies, like I said, the shorthaired are the dogs for me.

Weimies are docked for the hunting and part of their job. Basically a shorthaired weimy with a tail, used for hunting, is practically an accident waiting to happen, hence why the law still allows working dogs to be docked.

Just a point about banding.
When I was pregnant with my son I developed a growth on my face.
The GP (after it was checked out etc) told me to tie it off with dental floss and it would die and fall off. It did thankfully, but it stang like anything as the thing died off.
I imagine that is how banding a pups tail would feel, except worse, as it would also be going through bone.
Sorry, it hurts.

The face of a human is well supplied with nerves, particularly well compared to other parts of the body. A neonatal puppy, after just 9 weeks gestation has an incomplete nervous system yet to develop from the spine through to the tail which is not yet required to move and so evolution has not made a priority. Not really comparable.

But the evidence coming through now is that that is far from being the case Hewey, the evidence is suggesting that actually they feel pain more acutely than an adult dog would.
People use to think that premature babies didn't feel pain too....and fish....

I've seen the evidence for babies but not anything for puppies other than an attempt to connect the two. Human babies take 10 times as long to gestate plenty of time to form a more complete nervous system. I find it hard to seen how nature, for all her wonders, can produce a nervous system in just 9 weeks that is actually more responsive than an adults.

You are incorrect, and it is comparable.
The evidence is available and has been for years.

----------------------------------

INCORRECT MYTHS ABOUT PAIN.

Several myths about pain have been propagated for years and form the basis on which cosmetic tail docking
has been justified and allowed to be perpetuated.

MYTH 1 - Animals don't feel pain like humans. This is illogical. Anatomically and physiologically mammals
(and possibly all vertebrates) have the same neural transmitters, receptors, pathways and higher brain centres.
Whilst it is true that animals may show different signs of pain, we cannot deny that they feel pain in the same
way humans do (Fleeman 1995). Because of the physiological similarity between mammals, it is valid to use
animals, including dogs, as models for human medical research. The converse applies in that man can be used
as a model for advancing veterinary knowledge. Similarity between the human and canine nervous systems
means that we can assume that anything causing pain in man will cause a painful sensation of similar intensity
in the dog.The pain threshold has been determined to be approximately equal in humans and animals
(Fleeman 1995).

MYTH 2 - Lack of myelination is an index of immaturity in the neonatal nervous system and therefore
neonates are not capable of pain perception. We know this is no longer correct, in fact the contrary occurs.
Anatomical studies have shown that the density of cutaneous nociceptive nerve endings in the late foetus and
newborn animal may equal or exceed that of adult skin (Anand and Cart 1989). Nociceptive impulses are
conducted via unmyelinated and thinly myelinated fibres. The slower conduction velocity in neonatal nerves
resulting from incomplete myelination is offset by the shorter interneuronal and neuromuscular distances that
the impulse has to travel. It has been shown, using quantitative neuroanatomical methods, that nerve tracts
associated with nociception in the spinal cord and brain stem are completely myelinated up to the thalamus
during gestation (Anand and Cart 1989). Further development of the pain pathways occurs during puppyhood
when there is a high degree of 'brain plasticity.'The development of descending inhibitory pain pathways in the
dorsal horn of the spinal cord and the sensory brain stem nuclei also occurs during this period, therefore painful
and other experiences during this period may determine the final architecture of the adult pain system.

THE PAIN OF TAIL DOCKING.

Tail docking involves the removal of all or part of the tail using cutting or crushing instruments. Muscles, tendons,
4 to 7 pairs of nerves and sometimes bone or cartilage are severed. The initial pain from the direct injury to the
nervous system would be intense and at a level that would not be permitted to be inflicted on humans. The
subsequent tissue injury and inflammation, especially if the tail is left to heal as an open wound will produce
the algogenic substances, the 'sensitising soup' and the 'dorsal horn wind up' required for peripheral and central
sensitisation and the development of ongoing pathological pain. Puppies are usually subjected to this pain and
trauma at 2 to 5 days of age when the level of pain would he much greater than an adult would experience
because the afferent stimuli reaching the dorsal horn from a greater density of sensitised cutaneous nociceptors
will exceed that of the adult and the strength and frequency of painful stimuli reaching the brain will he greater
because inhibitory pain pathways will not be developed.

*
The whimpering and the 'escape response' (continual movements) exhibited by most puppies
following tail docking, are evidence that they are feeling substantial pain. Animals tend to be
more stoic than humans due to an inherent preservation instinct.

*
Because some puppies do not show signs of intense suffering, it does not mean that the pain
inflicted on them has not registered in their central nervous system.



http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_4.htm
--------------------------------------

Myth 1 I have no doubt mature animals, mammals presumably, do feel pain as humans do but the question is what of neonates and this statement does not appear to be dealing with that.
Myth 2 Are we talking about precocious neonates such as puppies or more generally of animals that may have a much lengthier gestation? Many mammals are born much further developed, able to hear, see and even walk.
The evidence I have is that of my own experience. I have reasonable experience of puppies and have spent many hours with little to do in the nursery but observe them. They are not without means of making you aware when they are uncomfortable from the very beginning. I am also been present at the docking of several litters and know what I have observed there.

The informtion presented [ which was researched by qualified experts btw ], is specifically about puppies and docking.


Unless you have had a tail of your own docked you do not actually have your own experience of it.
What is commonly observed and so misunderstood by pro-dockers is more than well enough factually explained in the information researched by medical experts.
The whole nature of research is that it has to be unbiased so as not to colour results or interpret favourably one way of the other to suit a prefered point of view.

Sadly, pro-dockers simply prefer to ignore the facts
Mind you, at one time people refused to believe the scientific evidence that the Earth is`nt flat, that took a while for some to believe as well...

I have a very old book on poodle breeding (goes back to the 60's or older) and there is a part in there about docking. The book was, of course, written at a time where docking did not cause the controversy it does today. In it it clearly states that puppies do react to the pain and it is advisable, because of the shock, to only dock puppies that are thriving. I think that is very telling. These were long time poodle breeders. Didn't pretend that they never witnessed a puppy being docked and reacting (strange because all the litters I've seen being docked have reacted).
Becky