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Laurabehjet
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19-05-2013, 01:54 PM

A follow on thread from training my sheepdog to be a sheepdog

I'm definitely going to do it!

The more I observe her behaviour the more I think it's cruel not to.
You can tell she really wants to work so bad.

So, I'm thinking about doing a course, getting books, DVDs and seeing if a nice local farmer will let me walk her on lead near his sheep when she's a bit older just to get her used to them.

Before I do that though, is her name going to cause an issue....?

The isds say they only register single syllable names like Ben, sky, star etc.
Her name is Penelope!
She does respond to it readily and will always come when called.

Secondly, just how do you go about teaching that'll do?
It seems to be one of the most important commands but I can't get any info on teaching it?

I'd like her to know the meaning of a few commands like that'll do, back off etc before I start properly training her with sheep?
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Lacey10
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19-05-2013, 02:01 PM
Hey,can't help you with the training advice but good for you!Wishing her all the best
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JoedeeUK
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19-05-2013, 03:44 PM
"That'll do" means stop working & TBH you are trying to run before you can walk with your puppy.

You cannot teach her any herding commands away from sheep, my dogs that were trained to sheep had their sheep working commands & their obedience/WT commands & they learnt the herding commands only around sheep.

Re the ISDS name didn't the breeder of your puppy name her & register her before you bought her ?

Do you have a local farmer who has some hoggetts that have already been "dogged", a young dog needs sheep that have been used to dogs & that will move freely. You cannot simply use any old sheep, you only need a small packet of sheep to start with & a pen to contain them so you can teach the "away to me"(anti clockwise) & "come bye"(clockwise) commands without risk to the sheep & to keep the dog a working distance away from the sheep & prevent any gripping.

Have a look at this 5 month old BC who has already been put round sheep in a small pen & has now graduated into being allowed open access to sheep as he has learnt to stand off & has a very experienced handler

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Laurabehjet
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19-05-2013, 03:54 PM
I see, I will put my name down for a course then to teach her it all.

I just thought that maybe if she understood a few things beforehand that it would make it easier for her.

No, the 'breeder' has been a bit of a nightmare regarding this.
We bought her from a working sheep farm, we weren't looking for a working dog or a show dog so we never enquired when we weren't given papers or packs or anything.
It was literally a hello, pick whichever you want and off we went.
I later rang to ask if the parents were isds reg and she said both were.
I asked for photocopies so I could dual reg my puppy with isds and the kennel club, she promised shed send them and never did.
I ave up asking after a while, I gather the only way isds would register her is through merit but their guidelines say they only register one syllable names which is a problem.

I don't know, but I am going to find out.

Thank you for the video too.
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JoedeeUK
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19-05-2013, 07:59 PM
You cannot register her with the ISDS until she has been assessed for the ROM(Register of Merit)or she has been successful at ISDS affiliated trials, full details here& the cost is 500 just to get the dog registered

There may be several reasons why the puppies were not ISDS registered, the parents may not be eye tested or may have produced puppies with CEA/PRA in previous litters, they are not ISDS members etc

You can register her with the KC as a BC as the following rules apply to Border Collies
:a) The dog is registered with the ISDS
b) Both parents are registered with the ISDS
c) The dam is registered with the ISDS & the sire with the Kennel Club

You do have to submit a photocopy of the ISDS registration cards.

You cannot really blame the breeders as you didn't ask for a registered puppy when you bought her.
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Laurabehjet
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19-05-2013, 08:32 PM
I will have a look at that link thank you.

she assured me both parents were registered but i guess i'll never know the reason why the puppies werent.

As your posts states, I can't register her with the kennel club either as I don't have any photocopies of the parents isds certificates

With the breeder, while its true I didn't ask for a registered puppy I don't think it's on to say 'of course, I will send them out tomorrow morning' followed by multiple 'I haven't forgottens, I will post them right away. Let me take your address again' then never bother to send them.

All she had to say was for x reason I am not prepared to give you the papers, she didn't have to lie to me so I was wasting time contacting the kc for registration forms and hoping for isds papers that she had no intention of sending.

It's not the fact I don't have papers, at the end of the day I went for a puppy not a working dog it's the fact she promised me I could have them time and time again and time again when she actually had no intention of giving them to me that has peed me off.
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JoedeeUK
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19-05-2013, 08:56 PM
I would have walked away from the litter if no paperwork was available at the time of purchase
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Laurabehjet
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19-05-2013, 08:58 PM
I can see why, she's a lovely little girl though.
Just irritating we don't have them.
Oh well, what can you do!
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Kanie
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20-05-2013, 07:20 AM
Realistically though, so what if she isn't regsitered? Okay, there are strong arguments for buying only from registered, health-tested stock and seeing the proof of this up-front - but what's done is done, so move on.

You're not going to breed from her. You are not going to earn a living from her; you are just going to find out what's what in the world of working sheepdogs.

If you are really serious, I would book a session with a trainer first and have a really serious talk with them about the pros and cons and what your expectations are. Tim Longton and Barbara Sykes have written a really good introduction to sheepdog training, which I'm sure you can find on Amazon.

Be objective about the whole experience. No sheepdogs are all round wonderdogs! Some farmers are breeding to produce a dog that fits their personal criteria e.g. they might need a very forceful dog - or they might need a very steady, more cautious dog.....or they might just want a dog and a few pups to flog off Some collies are actually primarily cattle dogs.

From what you say, you are being sensible and treating this a whole new learning experience. Working dogs to actually do what they are bred for and use their instincts is a world away from competitions and 'sports', so go in with an open mind.

Personally, I would go to a professional trainer with experience of lots of different dogs and people and is actually used to teaching people as well as dogs.
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lowfiron
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24-09-2013, 05:56 PM
The first commands that a dog needs to know is sit, sit stay, come and down. Down means down where ever they are at that time, they must not come to you first when they down. The people around here will not let you start training on sheep if they cannot consistently do those commands. I did not teach Ray to herd and he had all those BC herding behaviors. I did train him to obey all of those commands.
My dog also had the grip and loved to herd people, you must control that behavior if you let him among people. BCs bred for cattle are selected for 'grip'. Cattle do not respond well to the 'collie eye' they need nipping and biting to get them to move. Cattle naturally stand there ground to a dog. It took me a while to control the 'grip'. Luckily it was just nipping or biting the ankle which is not taken to kindly by anyone.
He was fine but on occasion a man that he did not know would get that little turn towards the ankle if they walked past him. He didn't nip but that behavior was obvious.
BCs will heard ducks and you can train them on ducks, at least that is what I have been told.
I wanted to add my experience because I feel that it is not imperative to have a BC herd. There are many BCs that are up for adoption and not all adoptees can afford to train them to herd. There are only so many sheep herders in CA and there are only two recreational herding facilities near me and they are about 120 miles away. If it was requirement to have a rescued BC herd, they would have to put them down. There are many activities for a BC to do. They are a handful, they need to be exercised and challenged all the time, so anyone who adopts one must be prepared for that. I've had three BCs, all were rescued.
We had a Brittany and he needed constant exercise (luckily he was a ball dog) other wise he would tear things apart, just like a BC.
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