As you said people don't understand what purely positive means because there isn't such a thing. Perhaps that is another reason why people have badly behaved dogs because of the media pressure to use purely positive methods and dog-owners taking it literally and failing?

Absolutely. The owners needs wishes to be targeted, but their expectation has to be managed, the environment controlled, the feeding made sensible, the technique taught (and understood) and the dog be in a position to respond before ANY training method can be fully successfull. And its not always easy to get all of that to work out for everyone or every dog.

That I feel is one of the main reasons why all possibilities should be considered.

Here is a success story. And a failure. On the side of the SAME AVERSIVE. The success, of all people, Barkbusters ( on the whole I feel barkbusters usually do a poor to middling job) but on this occasion, it worked. It is a strong case argument in favour of open minded approaches. This is not an approach that I would usually endorse, but in this case, it worked.

All this happened before I met the dog.... or owner....
18 months old male rottie. Difficult puppyhood - very ill with parvo. Grown into strong, large, very pushy and reactive dog. Well handled by experienced dog owner, well trained, using clicker and food based rewards. Well stimulated and fed. And loved.

Wildly over reactive to some people, some dogs and all other animals and suffering frustrated aggression. Not pleasant. Various socialisation, distraction, positive re-alignment of interests, etc.etc methods tried. Dog worsens each day. And is fast becomming a real danger to his owner and society.

Barkbusters called in, recommend a skirt in the face, owners tries, it works, straight away, as an interruptor and passifyer. Dog calms completely down. Never again reacts in this way when bottle present. Fixed. 10 minutes. Dog still massively improved in most reactive situations. And can be walked again!

2nd case. Border Collie came to my class from another class, where he had been barking incesantly. The trainer there squirted the dog when it barked and the dog went berserk, bit people (followed by more squirts) and has since been wildly aggressive toward all approaching people. Not good.

Fundamentally the same technique bringing two radically different results. One massively in favour of the dog, owner and the public at large and one of enormous detrement to the dog, owners and public at large.

Personally I don't think their are any "one size fits all methods". For no situation or case is the same. SO each training method or process, needs to be unique.
Denise Mcleod

Excellent post!

Quite right and this excellent post demonstrates clearly one of the points I made in an earlier post, just because you have a recipe book, don't mean the same recipe will work in all ovens at all altitudes!

Well, see I don't think the media does really portray positive methods - in fact I think the reverse is true.

Take good old Cesar Milan as an example - owners copy him everywhere, they watch his programmes and dogs have been put to sleep as a direct result of the owners attempting to do his more extreme techniques such as alpha rolling.

So I'm not sure I really agree with the OP in the first place

There have been a few studies out which indicate that dogs who are trained using reward based methods tend to be more obedient, and those who are trained using other methods tend to be less obedient, or even more aggressive.

If I recall correctly, one study is by Herron and another is by Hiby et al (cannot recall dates at this moment...). There are others, too.



Wys
x

Thank you

Wys
x

Re. use of aversives, etc.

I think all good trainers think outside the box when they need to, and have different ways of producing the behaviour that is wanted. I guess too we are all influenced a lot by our own experiences.

One thing I was very strongly influenced by was the fallout I saw after aversives were used on a dog in a particular situation.

The dog was a rescue GSd and was fearful of people - it would growl menacingly at them! This, although not desirable, did keep everyone at a safe distance.

However, the trainers (who clearly didn't understand behaviour) decided to work on the dog and instructed the owner to jerk the dog's choke chain (and they would chuck a bean bag if they were near by).

Result - the dog stopped growling and appeared well behaved.

End result - the dog bit a waitress badly on a beach walk and was put to sleep

The problem was, the trainers had stopped the dog from growling, but had not worked on altering the conditioned emotional reaction and so they'd prevented the dog giving out communication when it was nervous. They'd also not helped the dog to feel more relaxed around people.

When the waitress appeared the dog was under a table. She came closer, no growling warning, and the dog just went for her and bit her.

The dog was put to sleep unfortunately and the trainers just told the owner it was a "bad dog" .

I do think it's important to think hard as trainers/behaviourists about the very end result, and about the dog's emotions. We will all differ.

However I appreciate some perfectly nice trainers might use an aversive in a similar situation - although I don't agree with it, I can understand it to a point. But all trainers and behaviourists have a duty to keep their understanding of dog psychology up to date so that we are all basically doing the best we can, within our own personal ways (if that makes sense). If the trainers of this rescue GSD had been aware they were setting up a time bomb, they would have surely had a different approach.

Wys
x

That is so sad wys, and not surprising at all

The dog who attacked Mia was the same

Both her and Mia used to bark and growl at each other
She was punished and Mia classically conditioned

Her owner was happy because her dog was quiet and (in her mind) could be let off the lead while I knew Mia wasnt ready yet

But the other dog wasnt happy, she was just quiet
I was cutting tru the park one day and she was offlead - Mia onlead
Mia was facing totaly the other direction and gave a bark at something and Lucy charged over and silently attacked Mia

The puncture marks on Mia started on her back - worked all the way up to her neck and then over her shoulders and face (and she lost a tooth and was lame for a few days)
It was no handbags it was a silent attack and it only stopped when the guy with us grabbed Lucy and phsically lifted her off the floor

Yes, very true.

Hi there!

People who have been involved in this thread may be interested in this seminar I recently found on line:

http://www.dog-and-bone.co.uk/learn.php

Titled "The brave new world of dog training: science with a brain and a heart" with Dr Roger Abrantes, Dog behaviour expert.