I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment (disclaimer: no, I don't believe kicking the dog or abusing it in anyway way or form is the best way to treat a dog.) But I think you guys are missing a /lot/ BECAUSE you only view his first few seasons and only a few juicy clips.

I've been watching him for a loooong while now, he is much gentler and has shifted a bit in his methods though he does still go for 'punish negatives, reward positives'.

HOWEVER! I want to correct a few untruths here - hate the man but at least hate him for the right reason.

*Shock collars, choke chains, etc: In the first few seasons he CONSISTENTLY told the audience that he ONLY used tools that the owners already HAD. IF they had the choke chains, they had the shock collars, etc. he would show them how to use it properly (supposedly - since the most proper use of an e-collar is to toss it out the trash IMO.)


Ohhhh I hate it when people say this!!! He is an educator. He should be explaining why these tools are NOT appropriate and explaining what (if any) others should be used in their place!

I don't ever think it has been suggested that people get e-collars (I could be misremembering). Here is a quote of his regarding that: "...but the mild shocks are intended to produce an unpleasant experience that the dog will want to avoid. You the owner have to do your research and perhaps consult a professional or vet before you attempt to use the tool, because, in the wrong hands or used improperly, it can indeed create a traumatic experience for your dog."

So no, he isn't ignorant of the fact that it creates a bad experience in the dog, but that goes in hand with the whole 'neg-punish, pos-reward' aspect of training I suppose (Kinda like corporal punishment. Its not for everyone but you can't tell a parent not to spank their own kid - not counting actual abuse of course.)


*Rehabilitation: What worries me is that a lot of you are comparing how your dog would react in the same situation as the ones that CM deals with...that's so wrong its not even funny. Hell its logical fallacy. The dogs CM is dealing with are already out of control - a /lot/ of the ones he got very physical with are very vicious dogs (red zones). Some of them are rescued (in which case they HAVE been kicked before, but not necessarily by CM - hence intense reaction due to prior experience.) Some of them have had bad handlers that I am POSITIVE lost their cool enough times on the dog themselves when they got frustrated (why else would they be at the end of their ropes and call CM?)

I'm sorry - many people on here work and have dealt with dogs who are D-D aggressive and D-P aggressive. Some of us have even lived with them and bear the scars to prove it!!
The fact that he uses this method on dogs who have been abused and probably kicked in the past makes it all the more abhorrent to me. These dogs should be learning to trust people - not to be forced into shut down to accept it!!


THESE ARE NOT WELL TRAINED DOGS FROM A LOVING BACKGROUND. They are not socialized well, their owners don't know what their doing most of the time (with the exceptional few.) Of course you're dog won't react the same because you're dog is FINE and HEALTHY and HAPPY (go you! )

*Seasons: Keep in mind he is in season 7-8 now. Looking back on his season 2-3 episodes I cringe at how bad he was and how rough he handled them. He was raised in a farm so I can imagine how 'rough handling' is a lot more acceptable, if not expected. Hell I know that's how its like in some countries I've lived in. Current seasons he is much gentler from what I've seen...Unfortunately however he still does the neg-punish, pos-reward system.

Okay, No longer playing devil's advocate now

I would /love/ to see an episode where CM is placed side by side with a trainer who does pure positive reinforcement (the awesome chick from Kikopup?) just to see how they both handle high-risk dogs. Hell, if she proves her methods she might convert him herself and then the whole Dog Whisperer Movement/Fanclub can switch to positive reinforcement! Won't that be awesome?
...*sigh*, a girl can dream.


One last thing: You can't hate his message that no dog should be put down due to his/her behavior and you can't deny the influence Daddy had on the perception of pitbulls. We should be thankful of those two messages at the very least, I just hoped they would be presented in a much better package.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment

why?

I want to correct a few untruths here - hate the man but at least hate him for the right reason.

Actually, I think I`ll reserve the right to my own opinions thanks

Here is a quote of his regarding that: "...but the mild shocks are intended to produce an unpleasant experience that the dog will want to avoid. You the owner have to do your research and perhaps consult a professional or vet before you attempt to use the tool, because, in the wrong hands or used improperly, it can indeed create a traumatic experience for your dog."

I believe this breaches the Forum rules. Discussions/ promotions of electric shock collars are not permitted in undedicated threads


Its not for everyone but you can't tell a parent not to spank their own kid -

Yes, you can. You can also tell other people not to use violence on your children. But I fail to see what this has to do with dog training or tv entertainment.
. The dogs CM is dealing with are already out of control - a /lot/ of the ones he got very physical with are very vicious dogs (red zones).

If you had taken the trouble to get to know us, you would know that Dogsey members have a wide experience and include many owners of damaged dogs - who have been rehabilitated by kind methods.

Some of them are rescued (in which case they HAVE been kicked before, but not necessarily by CM - hence intense reaction due to prior experience.) Some of them have had bad handlers that I am POSITIVE lost their cool enough times on the dog themselves when they got frustrated

You approve of abusing previously abused dogs? Why?

(why else would they be at the end of their ropes and call CM?)
erm... so they can be on the tele?

Of course you're dog won't react the same because you're dog is FINE and HEALTHY and HAPPY (go you! )

Come and tell my dogs that. Go on. I shall enjoy watching

.Unfortunately however he still does the neg-punish, pos-reward system.

BS. He doesn`t reward. When does he reward? His whole ethos is based on a fallacy, his method fuelled by a testosterone-induced idea of Dominance.


One last thing: You can't hate his message that no dog should be put down due to his/her behavior and you can't deny the influence Daddy had on the perception of pitbulls. We should be thankful of those two messages at the very least, I just hoped they would be presented in a much better package.

I detest the man because all over the world dogs are being abused in his name, using his methods. I have personally had my own dog floored by a trainer using his pindown technique and she hasn`t trusted trainers since. Do you blame her? I know a behaviourist who makes a great living going round putting right what damage has been done by his methods.
His methods are a lie - that if your dog doesn`t do what you want it is because he doesn`t `respect` you. This translates to fear, because a dog cannot have the concept of respect.
I prefer to train my dogs, not to bully them.

As for how I regard people here in training their own dogs. My goodness! I'd never meant that! I am not saying you haven't dealt with high risk dogs, I am saying you have raised your dogs WELL. These people have not however, hence the need for help

I guess 'raising' is a bad word. Hmm, you still know how to handle your dogs well? Or any dogs for that matter. I meant as in you guys are much better than most joe-average dog owners who happen to be stuck with a high risk dog.

Why is this an excuse for Cesar Millan's behaviour though? Yes, the owners of the dogs may not have had the knowledge to deal with it but if members of a dog forum can deal with these issues, why does someone who's whole career is "fixing" dogs need to resort to violence? Why is there a whole organisation for trainers based on positive methods? If they can do it, why can't CM?

But it is NOT fair to dump on a guy without at least having some back and forth discussion. This is a discussion portion of training, I figured that this is part of it; looking at it from all angles, no matter how distasteful it might be. That's why I love it when people answer my posts with their defenses.

do you really think this is the first CM thread! Try searching....

As for how I regard people here in training their own dogs. My goodness! I'd never meant that! I am not saying you haven't dealt with high risk dogs, I am saying you have raised your dogs WELL. These people have not however, hence the need for help.

People need help, yes. That is why we all advise effective methods here. Effective methods do not, unfortunately, make for good TV entertainment. The Quick Fix lie he peddles is for the innocent and the gullible who don`t understand what happens behind the scenes. I mean - you don`t really think the footage shown is all that happens do you?

But I do believe in discussion, and I do believe the best way to prove your theory is how it is defended by others and vice versa - hence the devil's advocate. Please never assume I advocate his kicking methods, never ever EVER have I stated that. I just wanted to clarify.

or maybe you`re just bored and can`t be bothered to start a thread on a decent training method.