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scout75
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16-01-2011, 08:33 AM

TOTW-too much calcium?

I have had both of my GSD's on TOTW for 3 months, was quite happy until I came across some info on the high calcium levels in this food (2.1%)

Apparently because it is an 'all life stages' food right up to lactating bitches, they put in the highest calcium level which is TOO HIGH for growing large breed puppies. According to the TOTW vet healthy dogs should be able to excrete out the extra calcium but what if they don't? And apparently doing so puts extra strain on kidneys.

I am now taking my 2 off it but I am really disappointed as it was the only grain free food I can afford.

Why don't they just make a puppy and adult food separately?
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ClaireandDaisy
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16-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Considering that dogs manage to survive eating rubbish, old boots, Bakers Complete and rotting fish - do you think maybe you are worrying a bit too much?
Why not feed Raw if you want grain free? Mind you, there`s a fair bit of calcium in it. But then I was always taught that calcium was needed for teeth and bones?
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kirsty_
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17-01-2011, 01:52 PM
the pacific stream is slightly lower at 1.9%
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Dobermann
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17-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Calcium isnt just needed for teeth and bones but for other needs too, good mineral content (including sufficient calcium) helps keep tendons and ligaments healthy and in good condition too. If they are eating alittle too much clacium then all it will do is help keep stools firm.

tbh, this is only one reson why I prefer to feed a raw diet - bone has ALL minerals needed in perfect ratio to one another and in its most easily utilised form for the dog. They also can utilise EFA's etc. easier adn a ton more...

When feeding a raw diet the rough guideline is 80% meat, 10% offal (5% of which should be liver) and 10% bone. tbh I dont know EXACT figures of how much of the total minerals in bone are calcium, but I wouldnt have thought if you are feeding a food under 3% calcium that it would damage a dog through 'overload' and could it be that it makes the kidneys work slightly harder rather actually damaging them? i.e. is there proof that feeding an exact percentage of calcium in the dogs diet is kinder to kidneys? rather than the 3%? (no expert but I'm guessing not?) Every pet food company has their own product to sell and each will sponsor research that makes the figures on the back of their packs look good etc Just bear it in mind, thats all.

Considering its £43. (excluding delivery) for only 13kg's I would find that expensive compared to £35 max for 60lb of meat including delivery....rawfeeding may be cheaper for you?

Either way, if you prefer feeding dry and the dogs look and feel good on it, then I personally wouldnt change simply because of that. To lower the overall calcium content you could add a little fish or meat to their dry TOTW maybe?

Also, think about years ago, the amount of meatless spare butchers bones that dogs ate for a meal - plenty white poos around then but it didnt seem to affect the dogs negativley? Unless you have a dog with kidney issues then I think if you and your dogs are happy with that food and they do well on it then I wouldnt worry too much about it.

Edit - remember that all the pet foods with grain are bound to contain less calcium/bone meal as they are packed with cereals which is lower in calcium?

Edit -
Why don't they just make a puppy and adult food separately?
Regardless of overall percentage in the food a small puppy isnt going to eat the amount of the food a large puppy will hence it will not be eating as much of the calcium anyway, the grain free diet is based on a prey model system so the diet is the same throughout life, they just need to eat different amounts at different stages, of that food. Also, Id be wary of the too much calcium thing anyway, a few years ago it was protein that was the pups enemy - laughable really when you think about it!! I think of balanced nutrition as being achieved over time through a sensible diet. Same as a child really. Hence a raw diet for mine but each to their own.
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scout75
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17-01-2011, 05:03 PM
Thanks all, I would love to feed a raw diet (my last GSD's were raw fed) but sadly I just can't get the meat here. I live up in the mountains in Italy and Italians eat all parts of the carcass..tripe, feet, head etc so there isn't the cheap bits that humans don't want available.

I am limited to only what Zooplus sell as they deliver here...

I am still torn about the TOTW, some people say the calcium is ok and others that it will put a strain on the kidneys and may cause bone problems.

Apparently they did studies on dog food containing 2.1% and it was found that this food given in large quantities was not compatible with healthy bone development in puppies. Whatever that means..

Hate having to feed a dry kibble..
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Dobermann
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17-01-2011, 07:06 PM
I wonder what it meant by feeding that food in large quantities?

edit - another thought, how do they know that it was that food/calcium content in particular, as there are so many variables..? (i.e. each dogs genetic make-up is different, each dogs home will be different, each pup will have a slightly different activity level/play style, some will be walked more than others...even in kennel environments some will be exciteable, some docile, some jump up and down....so how do they know its the food? lol youve got me curious now - what study was it?)
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scout75
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17-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
I wonder what it meant by feeding that food in large quantities?

edit - another thought, how do they know that it was that food/calcium content in particular, as there are so many variables..? (i.e. each dogs genetic make-up is different, each dogs home will be different, each pup will have a slightly different activity level/play style, some will be walked more than others...even in kennel environments some will be exciteable, some docile, some jump up and down....so how do they know its the food? lol youve got me curious now - what study was it?)
The more I try and google the more confused I get by it all.

Here was the study that someone quoted on another forum where there have been lots of threads about the Ca level in TOTW apparently..


Orthopaedic Medicine - WSAVA 2003 Congress
Preventive Measures in Canine Orthopaedic Medicine
In our study at Cornell, by design, we used a diet with a high calcium content (2,1 %). During our study it became apparent that such a high calcium content add to the detrimental effects of overfeeding. It was postulated that excessive food--overfeeding as well as excessive amounts of calcium--oversupplementation with calcium is not compatible with optimal skeletal characteristics in large sized breeds. The Dutch research group in Utrecht have then proven that a too high calcium content in a diet have negative effects also when fed in more restricted amounts (Goedegebuure et al. 1986) and that negative effects are not caused by level of protein (Nap et al. 1991)
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Dobermann
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17-01-2011, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by scout75 View Post
The more I try and google the more confused I get by it all.

Here was the study that someone quoted on another forum where there have been lots of threads about the Ca level in TOTW apparently..


Orthopaedic Medicine - WSAVA 2003 Congress
Preventive Measures in Canine Orthopaedic Medicine
In our study at Cornell, by design, we used a diet with a high calcium content (2,1 %). During our study it became apparent that such a high calcium content add to the detrimental effects of overfeeding. It was postulated that excessive food--overfeeding as well as excessive amounts of calcium--oversupplementation with calcium is not compatible with optimal skeletal characteristics in large sized breeds. The Dutch research group in Utrecht have then proven that a too high calcium content in a diet have negative effects also when fed in more restricted amounts (Goedegebuure et al. 1986) and that negative effects are not caused by level of protein (Nap et al. 1991)
How it reads to me is that overfeeding alongside a heavier calcium amount isnt optimal (more to do with carrying extra weight? having to process more calcium overall?) neither is feeding a restricted diet alongside feeding too much calcium (this to me is saying not enough food and too much calcium is a problem, i.e. feeding chicken wings as a staple does not have enough meat to bone and so isnt optimal. Also why the emphasis in over/underfeeding and not feeding optimal amounts to start with?) It also seems the purpose was to prove the skeletal problems are not coming from protein, so is this what the purpose of the study is?

I'm just not sure about it all tbh, I can see why it is worrying to you but I still think that sounds a bit shady in a way, thats just my view though. No mention of numbers, conditions, variables etc?

Edit - think someone said that pacific stream was only 1.9% though so you could stay grain free with that one? Youd likley get that at zooplus too?
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smokeybear
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17-01-2011, 08:10 PM
I think you will find that most dog food analyses do not actually identify minerals individually but as overall content. It is also wise to ensure that you are comparing apples with apples ie what you are measuring is the same in all cases ie on a dry matter basis.
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Dobermann
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17-01-2011, 08:18 PM
yes and it dosnt say whether it was wet or dry food, whether the brand was always the same or just the calcium percentage etc There are an awful lot of variables to this. (at least from what Iv seen of the study)
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