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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
It's just me ... the bee in my bonnet. The person I have in mind to purchase my next dog from is 100 trustworthy and any dog I buy from them I will have his ancestry going back.
So you will be provided a pedigree or already know the pedigree?
Can't imagine being anti pedigree then.

If one breeds without knowing or looking at pedigree of prospective parents they could be unknowingly inbreeding or breeding parents together that have a chance of carrying the same disease.

Nothing anyone can say will turn me on this one - I don't WANT to know what my dog will look like - how boring is that? Like buying a pair of shoes to match your handbag!!
I'm not trying to change your mind, that's personal preference. You've every right to decide.

However boring it might be though, some people are concerned as certain parts of structure can be detrimental to health, be more likely to cause injury and other phenotype traits might also lend to health problems. The average pet owner probably doesn't think about it, but some would care if they know. Some are more important if a person desires a working or sport dog, but pets can still succumb to injury and having a health issue is something a pet owner would have to deal with. If you don't have or research the pedigree (some people are given it, but don't make use of the tool) you might be unaware a prospective litter grand sire was long and sway backed (which could show up in the litter leading to back problems), maybe both parents have piebald dogs in the pedigree and are likely to be carriers potentially producing white/white head deaf dogs in that breed, perhaps double joints and trick knees leading to serious injury and joint issues. Maybe it's not exciting to find out what's back there and what your pup could look like. Of course you are dealing with polygenic and recessive genes, so there can still be variance even it doesn't tell you exactly what your dog will look like, at least often times depending on breed (or cross made) you get different looks in the litter even if you have a general idea of looks.

Temperament-wise - aside from health issues - but pure temperament, again I do not believe there are any nasty dogs, only nasty owners who do not know how to treat their chosen breed by catering to the needs for which it was bred. My Ben is a perfect example - nasty, vicious git, unpredictable, spoiled, abused and had learned to get his own way with violence. He did not know that we had learned our trade at the hands of the Master - his father Hal - who I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever could have been a nasty git had he been allowed to be.
Yes there are owners like that unfortunately. I don't believe you're considering the full picture though, as it's simply more to it than nasty owner = nasty dogs. There is also the genetic role and hereditary temperament is much more than nasty vs kind too. Dogs are selectively bred for specific behavior traits and drives, of course some are bred at random and don't meet the typical breed traits or might have problem traits due to careless breeding. This doesnt mean that owner and environment don't play a role. Nature and nuture work together, you can train for or against something, you can encourage natural behavior or discourage it, condition a dog to a certain behavior whether intentional by training or if lan owner/environment unintentially conditions a dog to exhibit a behavior, all of which dogs also genetically have the capacity to learn. As well we see that dogs when one observes parents, grand parents ect (some cases has still shown doing a cross breeding), you see behaviors which are famalial, you see certain good things or bad things that run in lines, regardless of how the dogs are being raised different by numerous different owners and environments. Some times it's a bad thing like a dangerous, unstable temperament you can put some blame to owners no doubt but when a specific dogs progeny has killed a couple people and mauled others that says there is a genetic component. Over a dozen different households with the dogs so different environments, some of which are experienced owners too and also own unrelated dogs to the unstable dogs, the unrelated dogs have fine temperament, it isn't only the owner. In other cases it is nothing so severe, it could be certain type of fear or seperation anxiety or prey drive, it is totally up to the owner to be responsible in socializing, training and managing their dogs temperament, but fact is the dog has the traits to start. I do understand where you're coming from because so many don't understand how you even train basic obedience or even socialize, leads to numerous problems developing. Then again their are untrained, unsocialized even abused and neglected dogs with not a bit of nastiness in their temperament and love anyone they meet and show no anxiety/fear because that's not in their genetic make up. The less issues a dog is genetically predisposed to have or have not been epigentically turned on the easier they will be for a less experienced owner to train and manage.

Geneticist have made head way in some of this, identifying genes related to certain types of aggression dependent on cause, anxiety, fear shy/ timid behavior, prey drive / chase response, OCD. It is actually a good thing for future of dogs in both hopefully having test available and developing treatment. My dogs are participating in a current clinical research study for behavioral genetics. Previous studies already identified genes, they are further expanding.

And we do know breeds exist due to selectively breeding largely originally for genetic behavioral traits related to working rather than physical type as many modern show dogs temperaments and looks have been changed from the originals. Also hence why Border Collies wouldn't excel as fighting dogs, Caucasian Ovcharkas wouldn't be very productive hunting dog and Pit Bulls/ average terrier wouldn't be make a good livestock guardian.

Ben learned pretty quickly that 1. we we not afraid of him and 2. we understood him, and knew what to ignore, what to praise and what to condemn. This is how a nasty dog is made into a good dog - nothing or very little to do with the lines IMO.
What are his lines like? It sounds like he learned from conditioning / training. Your talking merely about one aspect of a dog. If a dog is also exhibiting an undesirable learned behavior it is much more easy to eradicate than a genetic issue that is causing behaviors, also would rather not have to work against an issue in the first place. Problem solving skills, biddability and different types of intelligence are also innate to a dog and differing levels / types in different breeds and yes between lines. I had a line of dogs and crosses there of which took more repetitions to learn the desired behavior this was not a lack of biddability or disobedience, rather it takes longer for them to figure out what to do and take this to memory, they also have a lower level of problem solving skills to figure things out on their own.

A lot of people don't understand the genetics involved because they don't see the big picture, just one dimension.

Sorry, I have taken the thread off track but it is a subject I believe so passionately about
No apology needed I never inteded thr thread to be about one thing.
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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
And SO disagree about GSD's ... poor, crippled, roach-backed, fallen haunched cripples - obviously there are exceptions but everyone i have known over the years with GSD's have had huge health issues. I have in mind next door's Ben at the age of 6 was crippled with fallen haunches and could not jump into the back of their Saab. My Ben, aged 14 or 15, can't remember exactly, can still jump into the back of the Discovery with the suspension set up high - after the walk, we do have to lower it for him but he can still jump in with ease.

Poor GSDs
Which part do you disagree with? Also I see your in the UK and I'm in the states, so maybe that makes a difference. I know dog populations are smaller there and less breeders. If the exception is producing better and healthier dogs that's who you go to. I personally don't line brachycephalic breeds overall, but there are a few I'm keen on. However, it seems that 90% of breeders are breeding to extremes and it isn't fair or healthy, so I would go to thr exception producing moderate dogs who focus on health and lend to be a more natural dog that can breath easier and are self whelping, actually have a tail and some muzzle, just to name few things.

Here GSDs are extremely diverse in both looks and temperament (I know we touched on this but another good example if it only mattered the owner/training them no GSD would ever wash out of a program where they are raised, tested and trained the same).

We have all different lines American show lines, DDR/Czech imports, East German imports, West German show line imports and imports of both show or working from other countries. Various sizes, various builds and structure, all the coat colors, shorter coat (found in working lines), plush coat of the show lines, recessive long coat, temperament of all sorts friendly, balanced with different drives and instincts, very civil dogs not meant for average pet homes, high energy high drives many can't deal with, lack of drives, nervy less confident, everything in between and combo there of depending on lines and specifics of breeding.

That is so sad about 6 year old GSD. I'm glad your Ben is much better off. My dogs live into the teens also, various breeds and healthy, but within the respective breeds I've seen problems. My Cane Corso has good hips, almost 11 years old and still the ability and energy of a young dog. Yet others I've known suffered crippling hip dysplasia early on being euthanized young or under going expensive surgery and other older members of the breed having bad arthritis.

Something to consider
If GSDs were in such a awful state (overall) they would not still be the primary breed of choice for law enforcement globally and related work often used as security or military dogs, ect and completing in agility or schutzhund, ect would be unfair or even disastrous for the most part. The dogs are not commonly falling apart as a breed as a whole, but obviously some lines do have the problems you spoke of. But from my friends show lines to the working lines to even my ex BIL byb GSD none crippled or roach backed, now I've seen that and it's horrible to see dogs with problems because of breeders, just not as an overall issue but again I'm in the US. Also health testing! It is so simple to do to at least clinically screen for hip dysplasia and use EBVs to reduce or prevent hip dysplasia and degenerative myelopathy is recessive, maybe not as easy as a dominant to remove but over time could be eradicated if breeders really care. Therefore taking away two big problems that lead to crippled dogs. Then go for dog with good structure, rather than breeding extremes.
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Gnasher
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02-02-2018, 10:28 PM
Wow! Thanx so much for taking the time and the trouble to explain that to me. Either I am extremely unfortunate or we have a massive problem with the showline dogs in the Uk. As you rightly point out, they are THE most popular breed for defence, police dogs etc. I was not including police dog GSDs in my comments ... just those that I see on my everyday travels and apart from the gorgeous boy in our village I cannot recall seeing a healthy looking GSD for 20 years. I love the breed, i am not anti GSD ... I am anti the majority in this country that seem so unhealthy. Maybe we just have a problem in this area, but we were down in Somerset in the summer and entered Ben in the local dog show just for fun. A cripple was awarded dog the judge would like to take home and overall best in show ... this is madness ����
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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Wow! Thanx so much for taking the time and the trouble to explain that to me. Either I am extremely unfortunate or we have a massive problem with the showline dogs in the Uk. As you rightly point out, they are THE most popular breed for defence, police dogs etc. I was not including police dog GSDs in my comments ... just those that I see on my everyday travels and apart from the gorgeous boy in our village I cannot recall seeing a healthy looking GSD for 20 years. I love the breed, i am not anti GSD ... I am anti the majority in this country that seem so unhealthy. Maybe we just have a problem in this area, but we were down in Somerset in the summer and entered Ben in the local dog show just for fun. A cripple was awarded dog the judge would like to take home and overall best in show ... this is madness ����
Yes that is madness. It is similar issues with a lot of other breeds. The breed standard might be the same for many years, but trends happen where people breed for extremes and judges put those dogs up for placement - exaggerated structure becomes the norm for many breeders. Drives me crazy too, I think it is one of the bad things that can happen in breeding. It isn't only related to show breeders though, people cross some of the most worst structured dogs to make extreme cross breeds or people outside the show breeders will try for all sorts of extremes (that are detrimental) teacup size, giant sizing large breeds, excessive wrinkles, breeding bowed legs like they are cute, including dwarfism intentionally breeding dogs with this disease, all sorts of bizarre things.
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Velvetboxers
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03-02-2018, 12:51 AM
We have a Brittany. The Breeders are passionate that the dogs being bred are fit for work in the field first and foremost. If the dog is also able to be shown, thats a bonus. I had hoped to show our girl however family illness meant we never got to do it

Our other dog is a Border Collie. I hand reared him from 4 weeks as the pups were being given away at that age ftgh. He filled a big gap in our Brittany’s life as her beloved Boxer soulmate had had to be PTS due to Cardiomyopathy. Thus the collie pup stayed.

I always thought Border Collies were a healthy breed so you can imagine our shock when he started to limp & was xrayed at 7 months, we were told he has severe hip dysplasia and needs 2 total hip replacements. Nothing could have prepared us for this news. This was a rescue pup. He is too young for anything radical just yet. Was he badly bred, we don’t know. His mother was caught by accident in her first season. If i knew who
Owned the parents i would have advised them Not breeding any future litters, but I dont.

I also reserve the right to buy pedigree dogs. Someday I will get another Boxer.
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Bulldogs4Life
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03-02-2018, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Velvetboxers View Post
We have a Brittany. The Breeders are passionate that the dogs being bred are fit for work in the field first and foremost. If the dog is also able to be shown, thats a bonus. I had hoped to show our girl however family illness meant we never got to do it

Our other dog is a Border Collie. I hand reared him from 4 weeks as the pups were being given away at that age ftgh. He filled a big gap in our Brittany’s life as her beloved Boxer soulmate had had to be PTS due to Cardiomyopathy. Thus the collie pup stayed.

I always thought Border Collies were a healthy breed so you can imagine our shock when he started to limp & was xrayed at 7 months, we were told he has severe hip dysplasia and needs 2 total hip replacements. Nothing could have prepared us for this news. This was a rescue pup. He is too young for anything radical just yet. Was he badly bred, we don’t know. His mother was caught by accident in her first season. If i knew who
Owned the parents i would have advised them Not breeding any future litters, but I dont.

I also reserve the right to buy pedigree dogs. Someday I will get another Boxer.
Yes that's highly unusual for that particular breed, Border Collie. Sorry your little guy had to go through that.
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SirRiley
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03-02-2018, 04:08 AM
I feel like, first off, we have to stop lumping all breeders together. There is a huge difference between responsible breeders and irresponsible breeders.

Ethical breeders who breed for a sound temperment, working ability according to breed, health, etc I fully support. They are necessary for different kinds of work like police work, service dogs, etc as well owners who want a dog who's temperament, health, and working ability they will know pretty accurately before they even bring the dog home. That is something you can't get with a dog with an unknown past and lineage.
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Besoeker
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06-02-2018, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Bulldogs4Life View Post
Thanks for the reply.

What about excluding commercial breeders / profitiers? Some pros for those not making money?

Dogs needing homes is a big issue in the dog world - which I feel eliminating commercial breeders (often termed puppy mills here) would greatly reduce this problem.
I don't think you can exclude commercial enterprises. Of any sort.

Dog ownership for me is about having a companion who walks everywhere with me, behaves with othees, tolerate my rumbustious grand girls jumping on him.

I have all that in shed loads. Without a pedigree. He is just Max and everyone loves him.

Difficult to explain.
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Bulldogs4Life
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07-02-2018, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
I don't think you can exclude commercial enterprises. Of any sort.

Dog ownership for me is about having a companion who walks everywhere with me, behaves with othees, tolerate my rumbustious grand girls jumping on him.

I have all that in shed loads. Without a pedigree. He is just Max and everyone loves him.

Difficult to explain.
I think I didn't ask the question correctly.
What are the pros of dog breeding? Not including commercial breeders/profiteers/those breeding as a business, which would have a pro for themselves in profits. What would be any pros you can think of with good, honest, responsible breeders? Any pros for individual dogs or breeds or other pros for people?
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brenda1
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07-02-2018, 09:29 AM
Making sure that only the best specimen is bred from to make sure that all, if possible, problems are eradicated from the gene pool. eg:hip problems, eye problems etc. Most very good breeders only breed for that. But yep you get the irresponsible ones cropping up which is why potential owners should be very careful how they choose their next puppy.
It would also stop some breeds from becoming extinct from our world with good breeding.
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