How positive is your training?

Something I have been thinking about while trying to find a good training class for my dogs.

I have been going to lots of classes who call themselves 'positive' or 'clicker trainers'
and I have to say I am a little disalusioned by what I am finding

I dunno if I am asking too much here

But what I seem to be finding is more what I would call 'crossover trainers' who may use clickers and treats, but also punish the dogs, use compulsive methods and talk about the dogs being 'stubborn' when infact they are just not fully trained or motivated

Some of these classes even talk about prong and e collars for fairly simple training behaviours

some of the things that get my back up are when trainers are holding my dogs and want them to sit or down for some reason so try and push them into position - then comment about how headstrong my dogs are cos they look back at where they are being pushed and dont sit down
- even when I try and explain that they dont have a clue what is being asked of them cos I dont train that way

- I know that sounds a little and petty thing but it really makes me wonder if these trainers sell them selves are 'positive' then I guess the word really means different things to different people (or is it just the new buzz word to sell dog training classes)

I try and train using no positive punishment
where possible training alternative behaviours
using luring and free shaping instead of manipulation/compulsive methods
Not demanding my dog works for me, just making it fun and rewarding enough that they choose to work for me

So if you are a positive trainer what does that mean for you - and more importantly your dog?

There are good and bad trainers out there, just as there are good and bad dog owners.

Before I set foot in a class with a dog, I go and observe ALL the trainers etc, if I don't like I walk.

Like any "new" thing (although of course OC is 80 years old) people will jump on the bandwagon.

I have observed people who claim to be clicker trainers who have no understanding of the difference between CC and OC (Joe Inglis is case in point of a vet who is stepping outside his field of knowledge in his latest book and saying clicker training is the same as Pavlov and his dogs)!

They USE a clicker, ineffectively and are not even cross over trainers, they may have seen someone use one, or even been on a course, but they are unable to transfer any skills they may have learned into reality.

There are plenty of purely positive trainers out there, you just need to know where to look!

Your thread made me think about a time when I went to watch my friend one sunday morning at training classes.
There was a Doberman who the trainer described as stubborn, everytime he told the handlers ro put thier dog in a ''down'' position he walked over to the handler of the Doberman and pulled and pulled the lead on the head collar finally dragging the dog 'down'

After the class I asked the trainer....''do you really feel that Doberman is stubborn as I personally felt that the handler and dog had no ''interest'' in one another''
Naturally I got a long lengthy lecture but funnily enough when I spoke to the handler of the doberman....she said, I hate these classes and have no interest, I only bring him because my BF (who owns the dog) works and can not make all the sessions she added ''my mind wonders off and he does the same with me.....and then she laughed.

Strange how the trainer saw that as Stubborn........anyone could see that the GF hated taking the dog, and in turn the dog had no respect for her.

I train my own, when I see them losing interest I call it a day, and return to it much later. Im a believer in alot of mistakes,mishaps,dis-interest etc are down to the handling/handler of the dog and training needs to be fun both for the handler and the dog in question.....happy handlers means happy dogs in my book and happy training means happy dogs and happy handlers

Well generally I think of myself as someone who uses positive methods, but I am not purely positive and I struggle to see how anyone can be absolutely if you are talking about NO punishment whatsoever and NO compulsive training ever.

As an example (I have more experience of adult rescues than with pups) stopping a dog from getting on furniture. First time they jump up I tell them 'off' and encourage them off with a hand movement for them to follow. But if they don't understand/comply with the hand movement I would forceably move them, preferably by means of a lead attached to their collar but I wouldn't be against a shove of their bum (depending on circumstances). I then ask them to lie down on the floor and praise them for that action.

Now I could lure them off, but I've heard of plenty of people who's dogs then just keep jumping on the furniture in order to jump off and get their reward.

I will 'manhandle' my dogs to a certain extent. As as example, teaching Stumpy to play dead. I tried luring etc without success so gently pushed her into the position. After that she got what I wanted immediately. But I never do it roughly or too forceably..e.g. when I tried teaching Hoki the same thing she was not comfortable being pushed and resisted - so I did not force it. I will also 'force' my dogs to come back if I call - e.g. by clipping a lead on and pulling them towards me.

I also use punishment - my voice 'No' or 'oih' or 'enough'; withdrawal of attention (walkaway from them if they are not listening); or making them go and lie down for a short while. These are all negatives, but I don't consider them harmful and the dogs understand what is going on. I don't tend to raise my voice very often because I think this just leads to it losing its effectiveness.

Basically I like to encourage and reward and will usually think its a fault with my training rather than the dog being stubborn if they don't do what is being asked. BUT I also want my dogs to know what is not acceptable as well as what is acceptable and that ignoring me is not an option.

I don't have perfect dogs by any means, though I do think their obedience/discipline is better than average. But they also trust me absolutely and seem happy and content and that is good enough for me.

That was in his book that was published a good few years ago now. His advice was that you stop using food as the dog has been conditioned to know the click=good by then.....totally missing the point. He also went on about not feeding a dog raw bones...


To me I think it means making things generally positive for the dog and using ways that make it clear to the dog when they are getting something right, rather than wrong. I will raise my voice if I have to but only when he KNOWS whats expected and is choosing to ignore, then I still praise him for doing that behaviour when he has. Whilst teaching something, I think initially lure and reward is more effective than physical manipulation for quite a few reasons. I have taught my dog a cue for a reward being witheld and it works well - a bit like a game of 'hot or cold' rather than leave him guessing, or doing the wrong thing repeatedly and getting a reward for one right guess, if he is about to do something that is wrong he gets to know that hes colder which gets him on the right path a bit quicker and he enjoys it.. (that cue is not a 'no' - he hasnt done anything bad, its just that hes not about to do something that will get a reward so he picks another..a 'thats not what she wanted so thats why I didnt get the treat, I'll try something else')

I'm not surprised it didnt like going into a down....any trainer that uses corrective and very physical methods will tell you a dobe is loopy, daft, unstable etc etc - funny how my dog has numerous Sch3 dogs in his pedigree..hmm, how did they manage (roll eyes)

Edit; RE; OP's last sentance, I'm not a dog trainer

struggle to see how anyone can be absolutely if you are talking about NO punishment whatsoever

But there is a very big difference in negative punishment and positive punishment isn't there?

Now I could lure them off, but I've heard of plenty of people who's dogs then just keep jumping on the furniture in order to jump off and get their reward.

But this is a consequence of poor training, rather than the downfall of using lures.............

As as example, teaching Stumpy to play dead. I tried luring etc without success so gently pushed her into the position. After that she got what I wanted immediately.

This is an excellent example of what many people do! Because they do not have the skills or knowledge of how to use hands off training, they then resort to hands on. Does not mean it is a necessity (after all having a dog play dead is not a life saving skill)

I will also 'force' my dogs to come back if I call - e.g. by clipping a lead on and pulling them towards me.

But this is a safety issue, you do not wait for a child to come back when called if it is running into the road, punishment is not the same as aversive, life is full of natural aversives and unnatural ones; what is more punishing, putting a dog on a lead out of harms way or letting it say be run over?

also use punishment - my voice 'No' or 'oih' or 'enough'; withdrawal of attention (walkaway from them if they are not listening); or making them go and lie down for a short while. These are all negatives, but I don't consider them harmful and the dogs understand what is going on. I don't tend to raise my voice very often because I think this just leads to it losing its effectiveness.

The thing we have to remember when discussing punishments and rewards is of course that it is the DOG that decides what is punishing and rewarding, not us!

Using a no or oi is an interruptor. Raising your voice just demonstrates you have lost control.

I have yet to meet a stubborn dog, met plenty of stubborn owners and met plenty of dogs who are not suffiently trained or rewarded, but no stubborn ones.

I would class myself as a positive trainer and this is what it means to me;
1. we endeavour to teach our owners to, firstly,their dogs positively rather than see them as a series of problems that need to be cured. To understand that many of the behaviours they find unpalatable are simply naturally occurring canine behaviours and to help them find rewarding alternatives that work for both dog and owner.

2. we endeavour to teach teach teach .. not correct or discipline.. the most we will use is a verbal interrupter such as "AaAa" and usually only when a dog breaks position or offers an unrequirred behaviour.
We try very hard to show owners WHY their dog may be repeating a behaviour they don't want.

3. we teach "gentle hands" and demonstrate how force creates force. We teach our owners to work with no lead and to learn to rely on the "invisible" connection between them and their dog.

4. we use a combination of Clicker and lure and reward and since we routinely have introduced the clicker alongside L/R we have noted two major changes. 1, Owners stop "nagging" their dogs and 2, Owners are less inclined to drag/ pull/ jerk their dogs on lead ( now this maybe simply that they are too busy trying to negotiate dog. clicker. treats etc lol.

5. We spend a good deal of time adjusting owners body position / language manually.. they find this bit odd to begin with but boy do they get an undestanding of how it feels to be pushed/ pulled into position.

6. Positive training always means to me that EVERY dog that comes to a class of mine has an enjoyable experience and can't wait to get through the door and no owner is ever made to feel stupid or rubbish ( not to say that some owners don't drive us nuts but they would never know that!).

that's about it I think, hope that answers your question.

another challenge for you.
find a postive trainer who approaches owners with the same positive insight.

also easier said than done

This is where I learned a lot - when I found a class like that. They are few and far between though.

Regarding "stubborn" .. I kinda see this as I do the term "dominant" outdated and an excuse for not finding a way that works.
Not met a stubborn dog but plenty of dogs who require a change of tack/approach ..
am always fascinated that dogs that find an activity challenging or uncomfortable or have not been taught with aclarity are labelled at fault or dominant or stubborn .... how many times has an owner of a Boxer told me they are hard to train? Um no ...