So would you use 'hands on' for something that was a REQUIRED skill? (If not, what is the point of differentiating, you may as well say there is no need for it full stop? And if you would, it clearly can't be that bad if it is acceptable for SOME situations, which is what I have said - some situations, some dogs not all dogs and for all purposes).



Hands as 'punishment' - this goes back to your comment about what a dog perceives as punishment. My dogs don't see the way I touch them as punishment.

Not wanting to do something can = stubborness but of course it depends on the perpsective from which it is being considered.

The definition of stubborn in the Collins English Dictionary is 'refusing to agree or give in'. Stubborn doesn't have to be bad - e.g. if you are sticking to your moral principles, then you can still be called stubborn if you refuse to give in under pressure.

I think dogs are more than capable of this definition of stubborn because they do know what they want/like and can and do 'stick out' till they get it.

But if by stubborn you mean 'deliberately awkward', then yes I would agree that I think dogs unlikely to act in this way.

So would you use 'hands on' for something that was a REQUIRED skill? (If not, what is the point of differentiating, you may as well say there is no need for it full stop? And if you would, it clearly can't be that bad if it is acceptable for SOME situations, which is what I have said - some situations, some dogs not all dogs and for all purposes).

As I said in one of my earlier posts, I would use hands on to prevent my dog being run over etc. THAT is the point of differentiating between whether it is acceptable or not.

Training a dog to do what is essentially "a trick" is not NECESSARY, however grabbing hold of a dog to prevent injury IS.



Hands as 'punishment' - this goes back to your comment about what a dog perceives as punishment. My dogs don't see the way I touch them as punishment.

And as I said in a previous post, those of us that use hands off training do not refrain from touching our dogs WHEN AND WHERE APPROPRIATE ie using massage, Tellington Touch.

Not wanting to do something can = stubborness but of course it depends on the perpsective from which it is being considered.

The definition of stubborn in the Collins English Dictionary is 'refusing to agree or give in'. Stubborn doesn't have to be bad - e.g. if you are sticking to your moral principles, then you can still be called stubborn if you refuse to give in under pressure.

I think dogs are more than capable of this definition of stubborn because they do know what they want/like and can and do 'stick out' till they get it.

But if by stubborn you mean 'deliberately awkward', then yes I would agree that I think dogs unlikely to act in this way.

The meaning of words can be context specific and thus I mean the last paragraph.

Stubborness is used by incompetent trainers to excuse the deficiencies of both themselves and their dogs, instead of looking in the mirror when often it is THEY are being stubborn ie when people state categorically "I am never going to use food, this is bribery, the dog should do it for me"

Dog training is not an exact science. I don`t think you can generalise as how I interact with my dog would not be how you interact with yours. And when all is said and done - it is one dog and one human learning to communicate to their mutual advantage.
If I stand still with Daisy on lead till she`s calm am I frustrating her, or punishing her or am I giving her the chance to collect herself? Who knows? To be be perfectly blunt - who gives a t*ss? Is resistance negative? Do I care?
I believe our interactions are positive because she has placed her trust in me and I have never let her down. That`s good enough for us.
People yanking dogs round by the collars are not training them. They are being impatient.

[QUOTE=rune;2119918]Pet hate of mine is dogs described as stubborn and kids described as lazy. Both IMO mean not motivated and that is usually the fault of the teacher/trainer/session leader.

I try and always use positives but sometimes it is easier in life situations to physically remove a dog from danger or even just to get something done in a hurry.

I rarely move any dog around by its collar but have often slipped leads on visiting dogs to get them in from the garden etc. I mix and match with treats usually.

I have taught obedience etc hands and leads off for nearly 20 years now (Thank you John Fisher) and it is a lot easier IMO than dragging a dog around.

I was gobsmacked at the last HTM competions I went to to see so many starter dogs being dragged around and then grabbed when they left the ring. It has happened in the last 4/5 years as the competition has become more important I think. Those handlers would say they train positively so it appears to mean different things to different people. (Quote Rune)


The one and only HTW competition I went to had someone from our class physically manhandling and grabbing her dog for being "stubborn" and the owner was told off by the judge Annie Clayton.

I used to go to training classes where they were very hands on and choke chains etc. One lady's dog used to upset me as I thought it had hip problems by the way it moved (a young Lab) and she used to grab it and push it down to the floor to make it lie down, with it resisting (probably because it hurt). I mentioned to her that I thought it had hip problems though not an expert on dog movement I thought it looked wrong and perhaps she could take it to the vets? She didn't but I met a friend of hers a year later and she said the dog had just had a leg operation for joint problems so not being stubborn at all.

Our heelwork to music classes were very good as the trainer was very positive with the dogs and the owners. Best way to help people learn. I went to one training class where the trainer would shout at you if you got things wrong and I used to be scared of her and humans don't learn very well either if they are frightened!

I am very much into positive training. For me that means no use of:

Choke chains
Shock collars
Prongs
Leash pops or other physically painful corrections
Flooding fearful dogs
Force
Aversive methods of any kind

It means no talk of dominance, being alpha, or any of that nonsense.

It means we do motivate the dogs to do what we want using treats or toys. In the agility class I'm in, we get the dogs all amped up and excited by using games of tug. But we do also use food rewards for those dogs who are really into food.

We wait for the dogs to offer behaviors and then reward copiously. If they just won't offer it, we lure them and then reward. But mostly the goal is to get the dog to do something we want it to by waiting it out and then rewarding for one "step" in the right direction. If they do something "wrong" we usually just ignore it or say "oops!" and set them up to try it again.

For instance, if I run with my dog toward the jump and she skirts around it I say "ok let's try again!" in an excited voice and race back to the beginning, redo it. If she does it right, then she gets rewarded. She's learning pretty quickly that reward = correct thing and no reward = try it again and this time do something different. It's an "it's yer choice" game where we allow the dog to make a choice, the right OR wrong one, and reward for the right choice.

I've been to a few positive training classes of various kinds and levels and they've all mostly used treats (this class is the first one I've hard that used tug, but in the obedience classes we wanted the dogs to remain calm). The only place I went to that used corrections did not bill itself as positive training. I only lasted through a full class and 10 minutes of the next one before walking out in disgust.

This is the place I currently go to for agility training. I LOVE IT. http://www.itsallaboutthedogstraining.com/default.html

Their training philosophy is: "If the dog can have positive experience, then you will have positive results. The training approach is based on positive training methods,working to build desire and drive through the Say Yes! training program using crate games, its yer choice, shaping, and other motivational games and learning techniques using the dogs natural abilities. We do not allow corrective type training including use of choke, prong, or electronic collars. Not only is it unsafe to have them on near equipment, we want to make the game fun!"

How would you describe a dog who wants to go one direction on a walk while you want to go in another and who sits down when you head the way you want to and then stares at you and then stares at the direction she wants to go? LOL

I would describe that dog as smart and one who has her owner nailed lol

Aah=you've met Cherry! She has only just started doing this behaviour and I do find it annoying as Parker and I (well me anyway!) are very bored at doing the same walk all the time that Cherry wants to go on. Unless I want to take them out in the car (which I don't particularly this weather) I am resigned to the same walk though.

With Cherry it is because she couldn't see very well and the walk she always wants to do is one where you very often don't see other dogs at all and she likes it this way (though she does have doggy friends she is scared of other dogs that run up to her as she can't "read" them).

Once I realised this was the reason I am happy to oblige and not drag her along the way I would rather go! She does have a valid reason for being "stubborn" I thinK!

She's definitely smart! I often let her pick her own way on walks because, why not? I'm big into letting dogs make their own choices! So she apparently has decided that we MUST go her way. She's good though. When I pat my leg and say, "Let's go!" she'll follow me even if it's not her way.

She's the opposite of Cherry. She always wants to go a different way. Sometimes she takes me on really weird walks.

I would be mortified that any trainer would NEED to push an already dog into a sit or a down when a vocal command is clearly all thats needed { as I know your dogs are trained to sit and down}
even an untrained dog does not need to be man handled, I really do not understand why so many trainers go hands on...literally..when all it does is cause stress...the mind boggles,
And no I dont think your being petty.