Are you related to Michael & Nancy London from Ontario ?

The owners of the First Light Chesapeake Bay Retrievers ?

How far had she got on the run?

I only ask because, if I've got it right, she failed the initial command and started a run out after the bird.

She had got close enough to a road for you to be worried that she'd chase on under the wheels of a truck so she must have been in full chase-mode by that stage?

You then repeated the sit command?

I may have got this wrong, of course, but if not, then I don't understand this part:

The sequence of events had moved on. She had by-passed a command and gone into work mode. She obeyed your second command with a repeated command reinforced with a shock.

I seriously doubt that she knew the shock was because she failed the first command. She more likely obeyed the second command and shock, but would have in no way associated it with the initial command - too much had gone on in the interim

Right I am definitely NOT looking in on this thread again! It is irritating me! So for me it's not 'Let's discuss Training' it's 'Let's discuss something else!'

I can't recall his name off hand but I think I might if someone said the name. It was a man and he was talking about how he trained, I think he was also very well known amongst the circles he moved in but I can't recall anything else I am afraid.

I would Google, but honestly I find shock collar training articles/info/vids so utterly depressing!

Firstlight, can you explain why you feel it is OK to use shock collars for sporting reasons? Is this something you can defend? I can't see how to be honest.

Wys

Why are you not answering JoedeeUK about whether you are related to Michael and Nancy London from Ontario - the owners of First Light Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?

Of course they shouldn't be at risk, that goes without saying; but, and this is a huge but, gunners are fallible human beings who are fully capable of making mistakes. You saw that yourself in the example you gave. I am glad for you that you have never witnessed a gunner's lapse result in tragedy, altho your heart must have been in your mouth when your dog got in front of that car. Don't let incident give you a false sense of security; I am sure you know that if one little thing had been different in your case, the result could have been heartgbreakingly different. that while mistakes are rare, poo does happen.

I once was running my dog on a water double at a hunt test, go bird was a shot flyer at short distance (steady test). Bird came down as a crip and was flopping around, and judges called for me to send my bitch. She got out to within 10 yards or so of the bird, and one of the idiot gunners sluiced the bird!.You would have NOT wanted to be one of the people involved in that fiasco by the time I got done with them, but none of my "display of displeasure" (to put it politely) would have mattered a bit if my dog had been injured or worse. If an experienced professional gunner can have a lapse in the controlled setting of a hunt test, it isn't hard to imagine a mistake could occur anywhere, by anyone.

Gosh! I wish I hadn't looked at this thread.

Firstlight - Is it possible you could edit the subject line to something less misleading? even changing 'discuss' to 'argue about' would be more relevant.

Had no idea it was directed at me, see the post about a wrong thread that followed the first one asking that question. I am not acquainted with the Londons.

Let me be a little more detailed: she was trained to stop/sit on the whistle and knew it well, it is also used in handling to blinds. In the case of sit to flush, the flush itself actually becomes the command - or cue it you would rather - to sit. She failed to sit when the bird flushed, which was her first chance to be right, and one chance is all they get to respond to a thoroughly trained command (I'm sure you can see the reason I teach that, given the circumstances of this incident). I hit the sit whistle (command) and backed it up with the collar, which is the standard correction sequence, immediately after she failed, at that point she was maybe 15-20 yards from me (did I mention she was fast??) and was indeed in full "work mode"; she was always in full work mode. It all happened very quickly, and very little "happened in the interim".

I am fully aware of the influence of work mode, including the impact of the adrenalin surge, and of one sense blocking the others; this is why I expend a great deal of time and effort teaching the dogs that they must always keep one ear on me. I am also aware of the fact that some conditions make it difficult to hear the whistle (not the case here), and I use a different whistle in those conditions.

This was a fully-trained 8 year old dog, and was quite consistent in her responses; she had a mental lapse, as they all do at some point ( much like us); this one very well could have killed her. The collar is not the only aversive I use, but in a situation like this it was very useful in preventing a catastrophe.

Now, riddle me this: First, if she truly did not understand the correction, how would you have expected her to behave for the rest of the hunt (keeping in mind my account)? Second, how would you have gotten her stopped?

I'm sorry, I have no idea what "dominance theory" means, would you be so kind as to define it for me?