Clicker, and general,training questions PLEASE help!

So after reading some threads on here I decided to give clicker training a go,and seem to have sort of got the hang of it at last (unlike last time I tried!)
Anyway,I started with a simple "sit" which Bella already knew (although has developed selective teenage amnesia in certain situations recently LOL) She did great. Initially I just waited till she sat,click and treat....then added the cue...etc. Great. Next session we did "down" which she also knows.Initially she kept offering "sit" but finally the penny dropped...all good .
Then -in future sessions I taught her to spin and to give her paw. I would start the session with something she knew-sit or down,then work on the new behaviour,then usually finish with a sit or down.Well,she has picked everything up really fast,and loves doing it. My prblem is that now as soon as she sees the clicker she just performs the whole lot,desperate to get a treat.Even when I add the cue words that I thought she knew I get the whole lot. So,for example when I say "Sit" I might get paw,spin,down sit.Or even just a down or a spin...etc...
If I spend the whole session (usually only about 5 mins at a time) working on one behaviour she will get it and seems really great at it,but if I ask for example for alternating "sit" and"down" she doesn't seem to distinguish which I want.I am feeling a bit defeated, because what I really need is a good reliable response to sit, and down .and I wanted to start working on a good solid "leave" too
Also we are working on practicing in other more exciting situations, but she is so distractable at the minute, and it is hard to find high enough value treats to hold her attention when out .Also I haves tarted brining the clicker out with me to use in various situations. is this a good idea? Or should I just stick to treating/praising good behaviour without clicker when out?Is the clicker really just useful for introducing a new behaviour,or can you use it to reinforce/improve a learned behaviour?
She is wearing me down a bit at the moment.I love her to bits,but I feel like I am not doing a very good training her at all. I am devoting every spare minute to her and she is a quick learner, but just not sure I am doing it right. At the park the other day there was a gorgeous black lab, the owner took him out of the car,and put him in a "sit,stay" a little way from the car,returned to the car and put his boots on. The lab didnt move a muscle. Then the owner blew his whistle and he bounded up to him . I so want Bella to get to that stage, but sometimes it feels like 1 step forward,3steps back. Is this normal? will I ever get there with her?

Hi
Sorry you are feeling a bit deflated by the training ..Im not really able to help with the clicker training as I dont have much experience with it but wanted to say that I know how you feel...
I have a 12year old BC who is very well trained and now have a 51/2month old german pointer who is proving to be a lot more difficult.
I really must have been spoilt with an easyish first one and now sherlock is showing me I dont know what I am doing!
I have started taking him to classes and this has helped ...but mostly because there is someone there to give me the confidence in what im doing.
When things dont go to plan at home its easy to think you are doing something wrong but in a class the instructor will be able to guide you through things and if it still doesnt work then they can give you an alternative view on it.
It has also helped with getting his focus when there are distractions as there are other dogs barking and playing up all around him. I dont know if you have been classes before but maybe that might be something to try? good luck anyway x

louppoppins ~ I'm sorry but I did laugh at Bella's antics. Don't worry ~ you're not alone in what's happening ~ this is a common problem but at least it shows that Bella's thoroughly enjoying her training sessions! All she's doing is anticipating the command & offering you every type of behaviour she thinks may get her the treat. So you get a quick succession of "sit", "down", "spin" & "paw" because one of these is likely to be the behaviour that gets her the treat!

Unfortunately what she hasn't learned is to listen to the verbal cue for the behaviour that you want. The effectively means that the behaviour is not under stimulus control. I find with most dogs that hand signals are easier for them to learn that verbal signals. You can always add a verbal cue later.

I strongly recommend that you buy or borrow Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog". It's a fantastic read & explains a lot more than I ever could about clicker training ~ it's a much more complex subject than most people realise & it really helps to have a good & thorough knowledge of operant & classical conditioning (both types of associative learning) if you want to be really adept at clicker training.

For instance, the book explains about perfect stimulus control which is defined by 4 conditions which may have to be trained as separate tasks. The clicker is nothing more than an easy to use conditioned stimulus, i.e. the dog has learned that the clicker marks the correct behaviour & is the precursor to an unconditioned stimulus, i.e. food! But for a certain behaviour to be under stimulus control, the dog has to also have learned the hand signal or verbal cue that should precede the click. So it means that:

• The behaviour ALWAYS occurs immediately when the stimulus is presented ~ "sit" or hand signal & the dog sits.
  
• The behaviour NEVER occurs in the absence of the stimulus, i.e. during the training session the dog doesn't sit unless it is told to by verbal command or hand signal.
  
• The behaviour NEVER occurs in response to some other stimulus, i.e. if you say "down" the dog does not offer a "sit" instead.
  
• No other behaviour occurs in response to the stimulus, i.e. if you say or signal a "sit" the dog does not respond by lying down, or leaping around & licking your face or pawing at you.

If Bella is offering you a "sit" when you've asked for a "down" you must make sure that you don't click & treat anything other than a "sit". If all she does is keep offering a succession of different behaviours then you must make sure you don't reward these until she gets it right ~ then immediately she does, you can click & treat. The whole point of the clicker is that it's much easier to mark the correct behaviour very quickly ~ like a snapshot. Your timing has to be perfect, otherwise Bella's done 6 different things before she gets her click!

Karen Pryor talks about anticipation as being a common flaw in stimulus control in that once a cue has been learned, the dog is so eager to offer the behaviour that it acts before the cue has been given ~ commonly known as "jumping the gun"! One way to cure anticipation is time-out, i.e. stop all activity, give no cues for a full minute & every time the dog jumps the gun, reset the minute time-out. You are effectively penalising the over eagerness by delaying the chance to earn the reward & this will gradually extinguish the anticipation by teaching the dog that it has to wait for the cue.

I hope this makes sense ~ but again, I would really recommend that you read Karen Pryor's book first so that you can understand that there's a lot more to operant conditioning than meets the eye. Another really good book is Excel-erated Learning" by Pamela Reid which also explains operant conditioning in easy to understand terms.

I can recommend "Clicker training for dogs" by Karen Pryor (good photos and understandable text!) and if you really get into it, the book that helped me really understand about clicker training as it answers just about every question - "Click for Joy" by Melissa Alexander. It's brill, but I tend to recommend it as a "second" book

Wys
x

Thanks for the replies
I have ordered the Clicker training by Karen Pryor book already...am hoping it will arrive tomorrow Didnt see the other Karen Pryor one though....may have to get that next!
Yes, the problem is really that she isn't properly associating the cue with the action.I think I will definitely try adding in hand signals as that should help,and will try some of the tips for improving her associating the behaviour with the cue.
I did have a better session with her this afternoon actually. She responded correctly to the cue about 80%(just working on "sit " and "down") She did get over excited once though and tried to offer paw at the same time as doing "down" and sort of did the splits LOL
And yes, you are right that at least her little antics do show that she is eager and enjoying training.Bless her

I have read "The power od positive dog training" and i have it as pdf. helped me a lot about dog training. If you want it i can send it.Its size is 5.50MB. Cheers