People's attitudes to dog attacks

Sorry this is a bit of a long story but bear with me! Interested to see what other dog owners think about the attitudes expressed here....

On Thursday I was walking my 2 dogs around Catton park in Norwich and we just turned around the corner when I spotted an elderly lady about 5 feet away coming out of the undergrowth bit with 2 small dogs on leash. Parker and Izzy were both off-leash. The lady gave me what I would call a "hard glare" as my dogs just stopped and looked at hers and then I recalled them and they came straight away and I walked them in a different direction to this owner.

At the end of the walk I saw her again with the dogs on lead and recalled Izzy and put her on a lead and called Parker to heel as we were all going in the same direction to the car park. When we got to the cars (we were parked next to each other) she began talking to me about one of her dogs which was an elderly Jack Russell terrier.

It had suffered from glaucoma (as my previous bitch Cherry had) and had ended up sadly having both eyes removed at different times so was completely blind (obviously!).

She kept the dog on a lead and said it would bite any other dog that came up to it. She thought it was ok to walk it unmuzzled as other people should not allow their dogs to approach a dog on-leash. However, another dog walker had said that if her dog bit another off-lead dog even though it was on-lead it would not be classed as being "under control"; so she bought a muzzle and had it off-lead and muzzled.

The next thing that happened was that a Dobe cross charged at her dog and attacked it and then the owner's other Dobe cross and her 2 other dogs also joined in the attack and the little JRT was being tossed in the air like a rag doll.

The JRT owner knew she could not go into the melee as the dogs would turn on her but the Dobes owner came running up and pitched in and lifted the JRT up above her head and then her dogs turned on her as they were trying to get to the JRT and she ended up being covered in blood up both arms where her dogs had bitten her.

The JRT owner said she thought her dog had died and she took her off the other owner and wrapped her in a fleece and took her to the car. She said she felt very calm but the other owner was hysterical and crying. She comforted her and said "it's happened now-you can't change it"

She said to me that dogs are dogs and you have to expect that they will bite. I said that I knew my dogs and if I thought they would behave like that they would be kept on leads. I wouldn't expect my dogs to act like that even though obviously they can bite!

The Dobe owner was so remorseful about what had happened and went round later and paid all the money for the vet bills and bought the lady flowers and chocolates. She said she had been out and bought a muzzle for one of the Dobe crosses and the one that had first attacked the JRT had been rehomed to Cromer North Norfolk.

I said to the lady that I am a Christian and I can't imagine I would have behaved as you did as I think I would probably have done my nut if this had happened to me! She said she was a Christian too. I did say that when Cherry was attacked it was a different scenario as the owner was totally callous and just walked away denying responsibility and leaving me standing with a dog bleeding from a large hole in her side. I really don't know how I would have reacted if the owner had admitted responsibility but to be honest I doubt I would have been concerned that she was upset!

I think this lady was very gracious/saintly the way she acted but I do think it strange that someone should expect dogs to do this-or is it because there were 4 of them?

I also wondered about the dog that was rehomed-do you think this was passing the problem on to someone else? That's what Jamie said when I told him about the story.

I suppose it just interested me as it was someone seeing things quite differently but she had been a dog owner for over 60 years and had worked for the RSPCA (I sort of got her life-story in the car park!).

What do you think?

Well dogs pack up, and then predatory drift comes into play, it does not mean these dogs are savage, aggressive per se.

So I can see her point of view.

Because I understand about predatory drift I am very careful with my large, high (and very high) prey drive dogs when meeting small ones.

Labelling dogs as DA or similar is usually IME a) not very productive and b) often very untrue.

I have assessed lots of dogs whose owners say their dogs are DA, they are not, and the owners just need to learn some observation skills and techniques to have happy dogs.

Of course there ARE some nasty dogs about, but TBH every time we read about a "dog attack" how many of these result in nasty injuries?

Very, very few.

Thus, IMV, it is not an "attack".

There are dogs who have no social skills, but that is different to dogs who want to exterminate others.

Those of us who have lived with dogs who are/were exterminators, can tell the difference.

I often think peope have unrealistic expectations of dogs. They expect behaviour from their dogs that even THEY are not capable of.

I started with horses, which gives you a different attitude. If a horse kicks, there is no blame (to the horse). It`s doing what horses do. They don`t have a moral code or all the baggage we do.
Neither do dogs. To a dog, a little old blind dog is a soft target, not a poor old soul, bless him. And I`m afraid your dog thinks like that too.
Dogs have their own `rules` which are not ours. As predators, an injured or weak creature is eaten, not nurtured, unless it is a valuable asset.
What dogs have developed is the ability to learn our `rules` and to live by them. But that doesn`t change their nature.
And we use this nature. We use the prey drive for all sorts of things - from agility to gundog work. It is the animal nature of the dog that makes it so useful to us.
Unfortunately, many people regard dogs as hairy, somewhat dim children now and forget they are first and foremost animals.
The woman`s Dobes were out of control, not wicked. I`m sorry she passed her problem on by rehoming the dog. That says more about her than about the dog.

how i would like to say i would react like that but i know i wouldnt be able to. hopefully the rehoming of the doberman was done with the new owner having the knowledge of the attack and not rehomed under any other excuse.
our patterdale was attacked by another much smaller patterdale and 2 staffies, the patterdale that attacked ours was known to be aggressive, the 2 staffies were normally butter soft but i believe they reacted with pack instinct. i am a strong believer that dogs normally sort the order of things out, i have also known ours and others take an instant dislike to another dog for no apparant reason

Not only hairy, somewhat dim children, but virtuous ones who are kind and compassionate and will turn the other cheek. They also think they can predict their dog's behaviour and take that for granted. No you can't luv. You're anthropomorphising your dogs. I think because dogs fit in to human society so well in many ways, people are often under the impression than they also share our abstract thought processes and sense of what is right. That is why we expect so much out of them as a species and get upset/outraged when they follow their instincts rather than ours.

The woman was very stupid to take so many large dogs out at one time. One dog is a dog, more than one dog is a pack and will act accordingly. It only takes one to spark something off and the others will play their parts out in the pack hierarchy that the dogs have between them and the owner is oblivious of and under the delusion they all look up to and obey only them. That is until something like this happens and they see their "oh, they're all big softies" gleefully join in like a bunch of drunks giving a random stranger a good kicking.

The old lady was very pragmatic and I doubt I could be so calm in that situation. I hope the little dog is alright. I'm also hoping the rehomed dobe was just acting like he did due to being in a pack and will make a good pet as a single dog. I also hope the doberman owner has the sense to take only the dog/s she can handle at any one time.

I would like to think I would behave like this woman and be gracious. I am pretty sure I would as I have a pack of dogs that would turn on another dog if I allowed them to all run off lead together. The difference is that I don't allow all my dogs off together because of that very reason. I also muzzle when there are other dogs on the beach.
A few months ago I had Jenny and Guinness off lead and they saw another lurcher and ran up to it. The owner panicked but as soon as she saw they were muzzled, she was cool and we had a lovely chat about sighthounds. I do feel though that had they been unmuzzled, the excitement of running on the beach may (and it's only a may!) have triggered something. It's just not worth the risk.
As for the rehomed Dobe...it quite possibly will be ok out of a pack. When I take our dogs out individually..they behave very differently than when they are together. They are much calmer and more tolerant of other dogs.
I do admire the old lady's graciousness though.

Dogs all though domestic are predetors at heart they will act out of instinct like cats will chase mice even though their fed at home.

I think this is what people forget and dont realise some individual dogs have more instinct then others to act by the nature of their kind.

tbh, the woman knows that there was nothing that could be undone to make like the situation hadn't happened, so where would anger and resentment get her?

The other owner was remorseful, made an effort to ease things in the only way she could by paying vet fees and probably realised that she couldnt manage what might have been seen as a ringleader through prey drive or whatever. So she admitted that to herself and had the dog re-homed. It is sad that she couldnt have taken time to learn and manage the dogs better but we dont know her circumstances...so it sounds as if, in her own way she has taken measures to prevent this ever happening again with her dogs (hopefully in other ways too)

I do think it sounds like too many, too excited at the one time, something moved, one saw it and chased and the others got all wrapped up in it.

If someone is sorry, what else can you ask of them?

No I agree but I just think her attitude was unexpected/unusual?

Is this something you should think or be concerned about if you see someone with a "pack" or group of dogs then? That they may turn on your dog if it is smaller? I had never thought about this before.

That is interesting as I am just reading an article in a January dog magazine where the author says the opposite to this about prey drive-that it isn't real prey drive when dogs are channelled into agility etc.

I don't think I said (or inferred) that the dogs were "wicked" but I wondered whether it was something to expect if you have more than one dog-that they may react like this? If so what should you keep a look out for when you see other people with more than one dog in a "pack". I would hate to be in a situation like this as I don't think I would cope so calmly! However-I do carry an alarm.