Dog Aggression and lines

Inspired by the pit bull thread.

Some members believe that socialisation is the key to avoiding dog on dog aggression, others say it doesn't make a difference. I personally believe it's a combination of nature and nurture - socialisation won't necessarily count for much if the parents of the dog were aggressive or bolshy. I am on a waiting list for a new pup, a breed which is known for dominance and dog aggression. I chose a breeder who breeds for temperament as well as other important factors. Obviously this doesn't mean I can be complacent and no risks will be taken with the new dog, but I certainly believe it will help reduce any risk of bickering within the group.

What are people's thoughts on this?

It's a weird one I guess...

Max is a case in point. Both parents have fab temperaments, siblings have brill temperaments (I own a sibling and see another regularly, plus hearing about another 5 or 6 on a regular basis).

Max has been well socialised, taken to dog training class since he was about 12 weeks old (until recently) and passed a couple of the KCGC levels.

He is horribly dog aggressive; so much so that he will attack (without warning or provocation) on other dogs if allowed (which we don't). I can't pinpoint any events which have been turning points to make him like this.Had I several hundred pounds spare, I'd take him to a behaviourist to try and solve the problem.

I suppose it has to be both nature AND nurture; and you can only do so much with what you've got. If you set yourself up for a 'best case' scenario, you're at least working with good tools. Set yourself up for a 'worst case' one and everything is so much harder and you'll probably end up with hassle and more trouble and work!

Socialisation is only likely to work if the dog has positive (or at best neutral) experiences with other dogs. Just mixing dogs & letting them get on with it is very hit & miss ~ it must be controlled so that you are pretty certain it won't go the wrong way.

I agree that dog to dog aggression can result from a mixture of nature/nurture but, on the nature side, with the best will in the world & by going to extremely good breeders, it does not guarantee that a dog will turn out to be friendly & non-aggressive with other dogs.

The genotype/phenotype characteristics will also play a part & even though genotypes (the internally-coded inheritable info) may be the same, the phenotype (the physical make up of an animal) is usually different. So whilst identical twins would have the same genotype, their phenotype will usually be different, e.g. finger prints will be different.

Then there is the concept of phenotypic plasticity ~ the degree to which an animal's phenotype is determined by its genotype. A high degree of plasticity means that environmental factors have a strong influence on the phenotype that develops. Little plasticity means that the phenotype can be more reliably predicted from knowledge of the genotype.

The upshot is that, however carefully you choose the genotype, by going to responsible breeders, looking carefully at the parents & more distant ancestors & their genotypes, you cannot reliably predict the phenotype (exact physical make up) or the strength of the phenotypic plasticity, i.e. the strength of influence of environmental factors.

And even if you can completely control environmental factors (& this is nearby impossible to do!!), you still won't know how much the genotype & phenotype are controlled/influenced by environmental factor (nurture part).

All we can do is our best by very careful & responsible breeding & very careful & responsible upbringing. And even that is no guarantee, as Isochick sees with Max.

The nature/nurture influences are not an easy concept ~ there's a lot more to it. One way round it is to get an adult dog ~ wysiwyg

As a lot of you know I have some issues with Ollie well socialised from a pup and controlled meeting and socialising of all sizes, breeds of dogs when young and he was bomb proof. Now he is very particular who he mixes with does not like his personal space invaded but is sometimes happy to have a sniff and then move away, he is not happy around over exuberant dogs and gets a little bolshy at times if they persist in annoying and is better off lead with meeting than on lead.

I do have to be careful with any types of bull breeds as he does for whatever reason take exception to them.

His breed is known to be aloof with strangers we again socialised him well but he is very particular with humans as with dogs. Both his parents are excellent temperament wise and his dad we waited till the next mating as he is so gorgeous we wanted a pup out of him. Cannot fault his mum either.

I think Ollie goes back to his roots a bit too strongly as he can be territorial and they were bred not to guard the herds but as watch dogs and I think with him for whatever reason it is very strong in him a throw back possibly from many generations.

IME it is a mixture of things - obviously the way an animal is brought up, trained, socialised etc has a massive impact - and a brainless numpty can ruin the nicest of dogs

BUT I do believe that lines play a massive part too - I have known people who have done absolutely everything right - and still ended up with absolute monsters of dogs - food aggressive, anti social, unreliable round people etc etc - and in the cases of several of the dogs - one thing in common - the lines .....

Sadly too these are the lines that run behind the dogs belonging to breeders/ puppy farmers who do not endorse and sell to absolutely anyone .....

All anyone can do is try their best - go to a good breeder who health tests etc and breeds from dogs with appropriate personalities ....

My girl is from a breed with issues with dog aggression, dominance, high prey drive etc and is the sweetest thing, obedient, calm, gentle with small pets - as were her parents.

(We think she just hasn't read any of my Malamute books and read the Labrador ones instead and is confused )

Thanks guys, some fab replies. As you say, there are no guarantees, especially with dogs that were originally bred to guard etc. I guess the personality of the individual dog can come into it to a certain extent too. Very interesting what you said, Shelley, with both your boys being from the same lines and having very similar socialisation and training. I suppose there are a lot of variables with living, thinking creatures! Lynn- I feel your pain! People must assume that Bernese (like Estrelas) are teddy bear like creatures who want nothing more than to be hugged by compete strangers. They don't realise they have strong guarding instincts. TBH I think dogs are well within their rights to get pi$$ed off at boisterous dogs in their faces and retaliation is to be expected in those cases, and in those cases lines don't come into it - that's manners.

I do think though that a lot dog on dog aggression could be prevented, by breeding out aggressive lines and effective management of the dog. Not referring to Dogsey members btw.

I agree,my breed is known not to tolerate other dogs as they hit maturity.

I have two opposites,Meg has issues wth other dogs,she was socalised exactly the same way as Tyler and has been been attacked and bitten countless times,hence why she is now DA.Tyler is the complete opposite and is great with dogs dispite been bitten too.

Yup - I see their mum and sister every week, plus other puppies from both litters, and none of them are even half as bad as Max.

Interesting, the main lines in their pedigrees are well known, and someone 'in' Boxers once remarked that Max is obviously from a certain line (without seeing his pedigree), as those line's characteristics are magnified in him (hyper, nervous, guarding etc); whereas in Murphy (and presumably the other dogs), those bits are tempered by the addition of the 'softer' breeding line. Max seems to be a bit of a throwback!

I think with some lines/breeds you just have to socilise them more extensively than other lines/breeds.
So if your new pup had parents with dog aggression issues you'd want to really actively socilise it, jump on the first signs of aggression and really get the dog mixing well. If the pup was from more laid back lines you might get away with being more laid back about it.
Ultimatly its the same with other issues (recall, separation anxiety ect) if you know the dog has the potential for problems just start addressing them before they develop.

Just to add I think expectation can come into it, I regualrly meet people with DA issues largely because they expect their dog/breed to be DA (usually based on past experience with similar dogs or breeds) so they choke up on the lead and get all tense around other dogs and the dog freaks out.

Btw have fun with the new pup, what is it?

Adam

Definitely a combination of nature and nurture IMO. I have one collie who gets very worried very easily and despite extensive socialisation still has moments where he needs 'emotional support' to cope with things. When he developed OCD as a youngster, I had a really hard time not letting him turn into a nervous wreck.
I have another two that you could chop the legs off and they wouldn't bat an eyelid (one did actually have a leg amputated due to an RTA and did literally stay extremely well natured and biddable even through the most painful of procedures)
My other dogs are anywhere in between. Some I've had from pups and some only as adults but they all have a very similar lifestyle and there is no pattern as to which ones you could expect to have a more confident temperament based on their socialisation.
I think you get what you get genetically and then you can either support that well or badly depending on your lifestyle and abilities as a trainer and the end result has to be a combination of both aspects (if that makes any sense at all?)