No, not at all. Ben has always done this - so did his father before him! The apple never falls far from the tree - and Hal was never abused or treated badly in his life!

When I say threatening, it is literally just that, a flick on the head to try and frighten you because all his previous owners have been frightened of him! Ben is not scared because I have taken a hold of his collar, he is an arsey git who wants to have his own way, and when he sees he is not going to get it, he has to have the last word - he's a git!!

You chose to try it on yourself our dogs have no such choice nor can they say enough stop now. I think for me that is what it comes down to, and why I only use kindness towards my own dogs, they do not chose to live with us and our way of life is alien to them so we just rub along together best we can, if they don't have 100% recall they are kept on long lines so they have as much freedom as I can give them without resorting to physically hurting them with anything just to get them to do what I would like them to do.

I was saying what was shown on the TV, at the time it was discussed over and over again on forums, some may remember it.

As to it being no worse than Slendertone, I know from experience that it is and so does at least one other member on here. I live with pain every day, have done for many years yet when I tried the Slendertone, I used it once and put it in the bin because of the pain it caused me.

Saying you have zapped each other up to level 20 means nothing to us, we don't know how many levels there are.

I totally disagree with you about dogs and ours' ways of lives being alien - we are a very similar social species - we are both pack animals, with a heirarchical system.

I have different views from you about keeping Ben on a long line for life - to me, this was and is absolutely out of the question. He would be totally, totally miserable. He lives to run free, so did his father before him and so does his kennel mate, Tai. To condemn them to a life on the long line would be worse than death for them. You must allow me to know my own dogs, as I do yours!

I do not physically hurt Ben. Why should I want to do that? He has an excellent recall now, and therefore why should I want to "hurt" him?

A dog doesn't have to be abused to protect his neck, it is NORMAL dog behaviour, you only have to see dogs trying to kill their prey, they go for the back of the neck, you only have to see dogs practicing the kill, they go for the back of the neck. Dogs will protect the back of their necks if they are not taught that it isn't an aggressive act to them.

Sorry Gnasher all you are doing is showing just how little you know about dog behaviour or how they think, I would love to know a lot more about it and wish there was the information when I was a lot younger that there is now, I wouldn't have made so many mistakes with my dogs.

I used to have my own Slendertone machine, and used it every day on such a high setting sometimes that it was akin to being punched in the stomach. I have also used Ben's e collars on myself set on 20, which is roughly about quarter the maximum potential. He has never ever been zapped on a higher setting than 20, and when I zapped myself at 20 it felt exactly like my Slendertone machine set on a medium setting. It made the muscles in my stomach contract, and the sensation although not painful, was uncomfortable and I can quite understand why it would make a dog yelp - he doesn't understand what's happening, all he knows is that he has ignored a recall command and has received a "shock" from the collar round his neck which has caused the muscles in his neck to go into a spasm for a second. As I have also said, we never have to use the collar now on Ben, but he wears it every day. Occasionally, OH forgets to put it on him, and it makes no difference, he recall is just as good as when he is wearing it.

NONE of my tens of dogs I have owned over the past 40 years have been protective of the back of their necks - just the opposite. Hal was protective of the back of his neck because he did not want to take a hold of his collar - it is as simple as that. He was a wolf cross, very aloof, and although he adored us and us him, he would never want to admit to it in any obvious way! he would sit on your foot if he liked you, and with his own pack he would sit on our foot AND he would toss his head back at you just for a split second, and this meant "I love you". Ben, his son, is EXACTLY the same, although he is a lot more doggie than his father and not so aloof.

I agree with what you say about the back of the neck being the point of contact during an attack (if the other dog is big enough to reach that height, my boys are HUGE!), but I disagree about them being protective of human hands from taking hold of their collar. My Hal was different because he was a wolf cross, and his son Ben is different because he has been badly abused.

A pack of dogs is mum, dad and offspring, the older offspring help with the younger ones, just like our families but dogs kick their offspring out as they are reaching maturity, we don't.

So boss of the pack is mum and dad. I have 4 dogs now, I used to have 6, I don't and never had had a pack of dogs, I have dogs that live together in harmony, most of the time.

All my dogs love to run free, my Greyhound was bred to run, my terriers were bred to hunt and kill vermin, Collies are bred to herd sheep but many never see sheep but are happy dogs because their needs are met with other ways. My Staffordshire Bull Terrier was bred to fight but if he was fighting he would be classed as an anti social dog, he has been taught to be good with other dogs and I have had to meet his needs in other ways.

We need to meet our dogs needs, that doesn't necessarily mean they do what they are bred to do, we have to use our brains and think of other ways to get what we want and that goes for the recall. Greyhounds are known for not having a good recall and so are Saluki's but I have had a good recall from both a Greyhound and a Saluki/Greyhound, it didn't happen over night, it took work, a lot of tears, being very vigilant when out before letting them off the lead, but we got there without the use of a shock collar.

3 dogs that HAVE to run free, who can't be taught a good recall, or have I got that wrong, if this is right, then there is something wrong with your training.

I have a dog that I can't do training sessions with, Tilly, she gets far to anxious and the information doesn't get to her brain, I have had to work out how I can train her without training sessions and without her getting anxious, she has a really good recall and is really obedient, if I raise my voice to one of my other dogs, she gets anxious and thinks I am cross with her. She has been a very difficult dog but can even do some tricks now which I find handy when she sees a human, her panicking when she saw humans has now stopped.

We want clean homes, we have furniture we don't want chewed, we have standards of behaviour dogs will never understand. Dogs happily live in kennels and chew everything, we don't do any of that.

That is what I mean by alien. In a few weeks we will bring a half dead tree in and cover it in glitter and expect our dogs not to chew it or pee up it. It must be very confusing for them how we expect them to live.

We will never agree about electrically shocking dogs because I too used a slendertone and it blooming hurt me I would never use one even on lowest setting on a dog.

I teach using kindness and treats and toys, if they don't grasp the concept we work around it eventually they learn or they don't but no where along the journey could I use force or electrical equipment on them. I would consider that my failure as a guardian of these beautiful creatures. Because for me love and kindness are what we owe them.

A Slendertone machine may not have hurt you but it has me and at least one other member, if I remember right she tried 2 machines and both hurt. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it didn't hurt others. You will never convince me that the hurt I felt with the machine didn't happen.

Previously you have said that you have never "Shocked" him now you are saying you have. If it was strong enough to teach him not to continue running and to come back then it hurt, muscles going into a spasm hurts, it is why many people have back problems, their muscles are in spasm and needs them releasing which hurts as well.

I went into these collars quite deeply and didn't like what I saw, I don't condemn anything without looking into it. If someone tells me not to do anything I ask why, if they can't answer I will look into it, try it to see what happens before making my mind up. My curiosity got me into trouble many times