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Wysiwyg
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07-11-2006, 10:49 AM
If using pack drive "only" or "mostly" what happens with dogs who are not traditional sports dogs but who are innately not pack driven/independent breeds?
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tillytails
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07-11-2006, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by GSDLover View Post
I found a really interesting site the other night, with a book extract which really had me hooked. Sadly, trying to get the book in the UK seems next to impossible!
Amazon.co.uk stock it (though it says last one in stock with more due in). £14 with free delivery. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Dog-...e=UTF8&s=books

Anyway, an interesting debate and another training theory to confuse me . But I like the sound of it.

I walk two large scent hounds, Hamiltonstovares, and trying to motivate them without food is a real struggle. The owner supplies me with treats to get their attention but they're only attentive when they know I have a treat in my hand. But getting a treat in your hand isn't easy when they're busy dragging you over so they can go greet a dog they've just spotted. They're powerful dogs when they've a mind to it and I can only just about hold them back. Finding a way to motivate without using a treat would be wonderful.

Edited to add: sounds like my hounds have a strong pack drive because being with other dogs is a huge pull (literally) for them. They're not aggressive, just want to sniff and say hello to any and all other dogs.
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Meg
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07-11-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by Dujoiedevie;820528 to Minihaha
You can give people hints and tips on the forums, but I really hope no-one tries to train their dogs on forums. That is just not possible. If anyone here goes with a dog with screen and keyboard, there will be problems for sure.

Sorry I don't understand the last part of the above quote. Forums are excellent for discussing training methods as you are doing now. Many people have learnt to train their puppies using simple methods described on forums.

Few questions should be now asked:

If you have food in your hand or pocket and dog is used to have some, will it do a task for you - or for food?

For the food to begin with, and then for me because I would only have food in my pocket during the initial training, that way the dog does not become dependant on food.

If you have a pulling finnish spitz, and that is a big problem, what is a basic thing in there? Is there anyone, who is lighter than finnish spitz?

Sorry don't understand the question, but I don't have trouble with pulling spitz or any pulling dogs,I train my dogs not to pull when they are at the puppy stage.


Is the leash there for the dog to walk you or you to walk the dog?

For both of us to share a walk
,
And are your words "good boy!" weaker than a piece of cold treat and if they are, why? Make an easy test: take a piece of food in your left hand and let the dog see, you have it, move your hand and talk to your dog with normal, soft voice and at the same time move your hand. Which does the dog look at? You or your hand?

The words 'good boy' are not weaker except to a puppy or an untrained dog for whom words mean nothing, they are just a noise made by a human until a puppy/dog learns to associate words with actions and food can help to acheive this quickly and easily. If I took a piece of food in my hand and waved it about my dog (previous dogs) would look at me, then at the food, then back to me with an enquiring look, why was I waving food around, had I gone mad
Jenni why all the questions? Training to me isn't some kind of competition, my main objective when training any puppy/dog is to do so easily and efficiently, build a bond/
mutual respect and for the dogs to get enjoyment/ exercise their minds . For me using food taken from a daily food allowance is an excellent way of doing this, in many instances I use a toy too depending on the dog .

I have seen many training methods come and go in the last fifty years, when I first started to train dogs I was told by my boss that the best way was with a piece of hose pipe and a choke chain to show the dog who was boss .
Things have come a long way since then thank goodness and dogs are in most cases trained without the use of fear.

Using food works for me and I am happy to recommend it to other. Ok yes there are other ways of training without the use of food ,and if you wish to use those methods and to talk about them fine, but I don't think people should be put off using food to train because they are made to feel 'less clever' for using food. There are many training methods, some are more appropriate to certain breeds than others ,I really don't think it matters what method you use as long as you achieve the end results of a happy, sociable dog.
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Greenluva
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07-11-2006, 12:11 PM
I don't think people should be put off using food to train because they are made to feel 'less clever' for using food.
Just to clear up what I meant, i did not mean dont use food for many.many things, its fine for lots of things, i meant for everday obedience i use only pack drive motivation, treats are not a pack drive motivator and i dont use them for everyday obedience,the dogs just do itfor ttreats not the owner, but for things like agilty or teaching searches fine
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MazY
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07-11-2006, 12:14 PM
but I don't think people should be put off using food to train because they are made to feel 'less clever' for using food
That seems a tad unfair. I just read back the entire thread and I really can't see where Jenni (or anyone else for that matter) has even intimated that anyone who uses food as a reward is in any way less clever.

As I read it, it's been put forward as an alternative method or theory, and that is something we can all learn from. I'm a huge fan of borrowing different methods from different theories and using them to keep my dog stimulated. So the more the merrier I say.
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Meg
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07-11-2006, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Greenluva View Post
Right on Dujoi, I never use treats from when they are a few weeks old, treats are a barrier, I use pack drive only, if you read through a few posts you can see the big treat failure everywhere, dog dangeling on a long line, owner holding a treat, the dogs relationship is with with a treat if it feels like it at the time, it ignores the owner otherwise and only bothers with a treat if it has nothing better to do.
Originally Posted by Greenluva View Post
Just to clear up what I meant, i did not mean dont use food for many.many things, its fine for lots of things, i meant for everday obedience i use only pack drive motivation, treats are not a pack drive motivator and i dont use them for everyday obedience,the dogs just do itfor ttreats not the owner, but for things like agilty or teaching searches fine
Sorry I don't understand Greenluva these two statements seem to contradict
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Wysiwyg
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07-11-2006, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by tillytails View Post
I walk two large scent hounds, Hamiltonstovares, and trying to motivate them without food is a real struggle. The owner supplies me with treats to get their attention but they're only attentive when they know I have a treat in my hand. But getting a treat in your hand isn't easy when they're busy dragging you over so they can go greet a dog they've just spotted. They're powerful dogs when they've a mind to it and I can only just about hold them back. Finding a way to motivate without using a treat would be wonderful.
The treats are being used almost as a lure here and are not very interesting to these dogs when other dogs are around
It is possible to train dogs to not drag you over the road (using food rewards, believe it or not! ) by teaching excellent Sits. Or Watch Me's. But it does take a lot of work and training ... it's a case of learning to train dogs at a more advanced level I think is the way I'd put it
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Bodhi
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07-11-2006, 01:03 PM
I for one think it sounds like an interesting theory.

I very rarely used food to train Bodhi, and when I do now, it has to be a blue moon

I think it is great another method is suggested, as I tend to take all the best bits and go with that
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Dujoiedevie
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07-11-2006, 06:13 PM
"The words 'good boy' are not weaker except to a puppy or an untrained dog for whom words mean nothing, they are just a noise made by a human until a puppy/dog learns to associate words with actions and food can help to acheive this quickly and easily"

Sorry clumsy quote.

I just want to take this part, because I am not too good to start write a book on forum

Then how come puppies from very young age react on person going in there and talking? Right now we have 8 weeks old puppies and I can not even talk in the next room, because if they hear my voice, they got all nuts. Puppies learn to react on humans - thats they are preferred to be bred inside the house.

From that sideline back to the topic: That is what I use in training, too. When I show up, fun starts: pack drive!

I ask my boyfriend, if I can lend one of his writings to clarify things. I have already participated several seminars showing that kind of a training to public, but I am not ready to write about it myself and also I don't feel it to be theory, because it is more practical than any theory. Still working with video, I am at home around 3 pm from work and at 4 pm it is dark already, so it might take til weekend...

J
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Greenluva
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08-11-2006, 06:12 AM
I have already participated several seminars showing that kind of a training to public, but I am not ready to write about it myself and also I don't feel it to be theory, because it is more practical than any theory.
Hi Dujoidevi, just to comment, as your in Finland, its only pet owners here in UK who are told to use things like treats for recalls and the essentials, its nothing new to working and sports trainers, its the same as you use, quite amuseing to think of my Belgian Mal coming to me just for a treat, thats right down the line from sheep farmers through to gundog owners and ringsports, the relationship is with us and the relationship is because of pack drive interaction, treats literaly only stimulate prey drive and relationships are not part of prey drive, the dog wants the treat and otherwise ignores owner.
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