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Mahooli
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02-08-2011, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Cesar saw the dog look at the collie, the precursor to an attack, and immediately corrected with a nudge and then the dog went to bite him. This was a dog that was very dominant and thought it was the leader of everything. A dog that was a follower would not attack the pack leader for a nudge like that. Cesar was attempting to establish dominance over the dog. Do you think it would be a good idea for that Malamut to think it was the boss?

Are you seriously suggesting that a dog looking at another dog is a precursor to an attack? That dog did NOTHING to warrant his treatment, if someone kicked me in the belly I'd probably bite them too!! The dog was not in anyway 'dominant' if he had been then CM would have been unable to walk him on a lead anywhere.

That dog would have no problem if it avoided other dogs. Cesar is trying to rehabilitate the dog not avoid potential problems. Michael Vick's pitbulls are now hospice service dogs, but I bet they are not rehabilitated when it comes to other dogs. The Positive reinforcement techniques used for them is basically avoidance.

Actually some of them are living with other dogs, I suggest you do a bit more research on Michael Vicks victims.

Of course Cesar knows the dog is not bad. As he says, the dog was looking to establish dominance over every dog it thought was in its extended territory. That is not bad and is not a case of getting it to like the other dogs more. If the dogs were free to rome then there would be no problem. Cesar is fixing the root of the problem or the mind by attempting to make the dog accept human leadership so that it will obey.

But you are right, no one else is going to be able to control that dog using dominance!

As CM has claimed dogs have attempted to 'dominate' light I take anything that man says with regards to dominance with a pinch of salt!

Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Cesar's whole approach is body language and energy! It is only when that is not enough that he pokes them. Cesar does not need to touch his own pack, like it is in your pack, only with new dogs that have not got it yet.
CM uses electric shock collars to control his dogs, he knows nothing about body language, the words he speaks and the methods he uses contradict each other. He shouldn't be allowed to have dogs!
Becky
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BangKaew
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02-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
If you do not have mutual respect you train the dog. However, you do not need to use force to train. You cannot 'force' respect, you earn it.
That is why Cesar says that exercise, the dog having a job, travelling as a pack, play and affection are so important. That is enough to gain respect from ANY dog. He says that is all that is needed but people ask him to work magic in an afternoon.
How do you know that Caesers dogs are happy being in a pack of 40. How do you know that some of these dogs aren't 'shut down' (ie learned helplessness).
Better than being put down right?

How do you know that if he were to let one of his dogs off lead with dogs they do not know around that they wouldn't attack and not listen to him in that circumstance.
If they do not listen he is there immediately breaking up the fight and then he makes the aggressor lie on their back, the ultimate punishment for the dog. They do not tend to do it again.
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BangKaew
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02-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I have to agree. I don't think it's worth bothering much to discuss this, because sometimes people are very blinkered and just see and hear what CM does/says and to them, that's that - even though they are armchair trainers and behaviourists at the end of the day

Wys
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Meao
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sarah1983
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02-08-2011, 11:41 AM
How do you know that Caesers dogs are happy being in a pack of 40. How do you know that some of these dogs aren't 'shut down' (ie learned helplessness).
Better than being put down right?
There are fates far worse than death, living in a state of such unimaginable fear that you are completely shut down all the time is one such fate.
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Wysiwyg
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02-08-2011, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
I have to agree. I don't think it's worth bothering much to discuss this, because sometimes people are very blinkered and just see and hear what CM does/says and to them, that's that - even though they are armchair trainers and behaviourists at the end of the day

Wys
x
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Meao


Ok well, tell me that everything you are saying is not mostly straight from CM (book or tv).

In other words, his patter is being swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Wys
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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02-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Cesar saw the dog look at the collie, the precursor to an attack, and immediately corrected with a nudge and then the dog went to bite him. This was a dog that was very dominant and thought it was the leader of everything. A dog that was a follower would not attack the pack leader for a nudge like that. Cesar was attempting to establish dominance over the dog. Do you think it would be a good idea for that Malamut to think it was the boss?

How do you know what the dog thought? More often than not a dog simply is not confident having the other dog about and has found that shouting at it makes the dog go away
If he really wanted to fight he would jump in without warning


That dog would have no problem if it avoided other dogs. Cesar is trying to rehabilitate the dog not avoid potential problems. Michael Vick's pitbulls are now hospice service dogs, but I bet they are not rehabilitated when it comes to other dogs. The Positive reinforcement techniques used for them is basically avoidance.

I think you need to do a bit more research into positive rehabilitation methods - its not about avoidence its about teaching a dog to be calm around other dogs, to build up their confidence and teaching them how to interact properly around other dogs
ONCE they start to see dogs as a positive thing then they can interact quite happily with them



Of course Cesar knows the dog is not bad. As he says, the dog was looking to establish dominance over every dog it thought was in its extended territory. That is not bad and is not a case of getting it to like the other dogs more. If the dogs were free to rome then there would be no problem. Cesar is fixing the root of the problem or the mind by attempting to make the dog accept human leadership so that it will obey.

I agree there at least, if dogs were properly socalised with other dogs as puppies - and bred from dogs with good temprament then there would most likely be less problems - but that is not possible in this day and age so we have to work with what we have got

But you are right, no one else is going to be able to control that dog using dominance!

So the dog has to be 'domonated' by every new potential handler? whereas if you actually change the dogs mindset about other dogs then the dog can deal with all sorts of situations no matter who is at the other end of the lead

Its actually the vibration the cells resonate at but can you measure confidence or nervous energy? A dog knows exactly how you are feeling.

hmm well I would say dogs know because they are such great body laungage experts

I completely agree, but that is not how dogs do it. When our second dog went to bite the sofa, the elder dog chased him away. The same as the dogs did when he went for the chickens. The second dog is not dominant at all so you basically only need to shout oiy once and he will not do it again. But we are still correcting the behaviour as it occurs. The same as a mother dog would.
But you are not a dog
would you find it acceptable for your dog to correct your children then same way they correct other dogs? Dogs behaive differently towards people than they do to other dogs

Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
I see all that and often it is far more subtle. The elder dog can be lying on his side and just by the eyes or the energy he is projecting, the young dog knows if it is ok to come up and initiate play, or whether to give him a wide berth. What you are saying is that dogs rule by the threat of action or intimidation and that is what Cesar attempts to replicate.

yes and no - dogs escalate their warnings until they are heeded - CM goes in hard to start with and conditions the dog that his warnings mean bad things are on the way

Can you give me a name to search youtube for even a mobile phone video of them in action?

Plenty of them - often vids are not as spectacular because as soon as a possitive trainer is aware of the problem they do not try and goad the dog into practising the undesired behaviour



and here is my girl doing 'look at that' dog training around rings at an agility park - her reaction is not full on at the point you see in the vid - I never recorded her reactions when I first got her - but trust me she made shadow look like a mouse and she was so fast she would have got a good few bites in on CM



and here is her a few weeks later with friends dogs just to show the training is to make her have a full life interacting withj other dogs






I have heard him say that obviously a dog at work can be out in front. What he is doing by saying that is to help people who find it difficult to control their dogs. He is pointing out all the different ways to establish a leadership role. The dog eating after you, only getting on the sofa or bed when invited etc. You must admit that a dog pulling out in front is not under psychological control of the owner?

I agree a dog PULLING isnt good - but a dog can walk infront without pulling

I drive at 10km/h with my dog and they see it as travelling that Cesar talks about. They absolutely love it and stay right next to the truck, seeing it as work. If they go to roll in something or drink stagnant water, all i need to do is call them and they come with the urgency of a dog that is needed for work. Now they can go in front if they want although they actually prefer to be at the side. However when I started doing it, I found that if I was going too slow and the elder dog was doing his own thing out in front, he would not come back when called. When I made sure to be in front, he would. If I saw him drinking from a puddle and I got out and gave him water, he again would only come back when he felt like it! He saw my kindness as weakness unfortunately. That reminded me that he is not human but a dog.

your dog thought he was the boss of you because you provided him with water??
I am glad I dont have to have that kind of relationship with my dogs - they come back because I have trained them to and because fun things (like working with me) happen when they are with me


As to wolves, in the below study, they introduced a litter of 8 months cubs to an adult pair of wolves. The Alpha cub immediately became the alpha wolf of the new pack. They say alphas are born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qEwoCu9aMc
So are you saying in the wild of all the litters produced by the alpha pair ONLY the alpha cubs go on to breed?

Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
That is why Cesar says that exercise, the dog having a job, travelling as a pack, play and affection are so important. That is enough to gain respect from ANY dog. He says that is all that is needed but people ask him to work magic in an afternoon.

Yes I dont disagree with any of the points - its the methods they are implimented I have a problem with


Better than being put down right?

Nope - and again like all CM fans you are stating that like that is the only option - being shut down and stressed in CM's training or put to sleep - there are other alternatives


If they do not listen he is there immediately breaking up the fight and then he makes the aggressor lie on their back, the ultimate punishment for the dog. They do not tend to do it again.
Such a dangerous thing for CM to be showing people how to do
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smokeybear
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02-08-2011, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
I drive at 10km/h with my dog and they see it as travelling that Cesar talks about. They absolutely love it and stay right next to the truck, seeing it as work. If they go to roll in something or drink stagnant water, all i need to do is call them and they come with the urgency of a dog that is needed for work. Now they can go in front if they want although they actually prefer to be at the side. However when I started doing it, I found that if I was going too slow and the elder dog was doing his own thing out in front, he would not come back when called. When I made sure to be in front, he would. If I saw him drinking from a puddle and I got out and gave him water, he again would only come back when he felt like it! He saw my kindness as weakness unfortunately. That reminded me that he is not human but a dog.
I may have read this wrong, but do you mean that you drive your vehicle and exercise your dogs by letting them run beside it?
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Tupacs2legs
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02-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Kindness as weakness? Lmao!! Another board member in fantasy land
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ClaireandDaisy
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02-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Them Billy Goats must be off on their holibobs what with all this activity under the bridge.....
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BangKaew
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03-08-2011, 01:58 AM
Are you seriously suggesting that a dog looking at another dog is a precursor to an attack? That dog did NOTHING to warrant his treatment, if someone kicked me in the belly I'd probably bite them too!! The dog was not in anyway 'dominant' if he had been then CM would have been unable to walk him on a lead anywhere.
Cesar often talks about noticing the look a dog gives another dog right before a fight and I have seen it many times when beach dogs crowd my nervous-dominant elder dog. He will give one, impolite aggressive dog that is looking to dominate him, a look out of the corner of his eye, and I know exactly what that look means, before snapping it 2 or 3 times in the space of about a second. I avoid known hotspots but really dogs can appear anywhere. Any way that dog WAS very dominant, that is why it is one of the few dogs that did not submit to him. If the pack leader knocks another dog to the ground, which I have seen happen many times with the beach dog packs, the submissive dog does not fight back!

Actually some of them are living with other dogs, I suggest you do a bit more research on Michael Vicks victims.
Yes living with. That is a bit different from being rehabilitated so that they can meet new dogs.
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