He may of had an injury? Not really sure, doesnt seem to bother him?

Actually I never thought of that since I've had him (eleven wks) the worse thing he did is run into a wall and he limped for about a wk, but it was the other leg that was injured, but I wouldn't be surprised if something happened before we got him.

It doesn't bother Diesel at all, as long as he can still run life is good and theres no bone/joint damage its just something that we live with

Where have I got my information from? Try 20+ years of passion and research in a breed!

In all honesty I've never heard people referring to the Cocker coming before the Springer, it's common knowledge that the Springer is the oldest of all the sporting spaniels. The UK KC Breed Standard from 1934 (before it was revised in 1969) states:

The English Springer is the oldest of our Sporting Gundogs and the taproot from which all our sporting land spaniels (Clumbers excepted) have been evolved.

A book is only as good as the person who wrote it at the end of the day! History is always clouded in rumour and mystery and many old books will reflect this.

Me? I've spent the last 20 years looking at pedigrees studying photos from the 19th Century onwards. If I'm honest this whole Cocker came first business is becoming a tad irritating now! The English Springer has been a passion for me for over 2 decades, but yet you seem to think some quick research reading old generic dog books and scouring the internet means you know better? At least that's certainly how it comes across to me.

From what I've learnt over the years the land Spaniel was brought over to England, which then split producing Springer Spaniels and Setting Spaniels. Of the Springing Spaniels the larger pups were continued to be used for general Springing and the smaller ones on Woodcock. The same continued once the breeds started to retrieve to the gun with Cockers being referred to for their ability to handle Woodcock. Basically, general Springing has to come first to then find out that the smaller dogs were useful for Woodcock. What you're saying by saying the Cocker came before the Springer is that the Spaniel were used on woodcock first and then it was discovered that the larger dogs were good for general Springing. If this was the case then how come the land Spaniel wasn't split into the Setting Spaniels and the Cocking Spaniels??? Can you see what I mean? History speaks for itself, Land Spaniels produced Springing and Setting Spaniels and Springing Spaniels then produced Cocking Spaniels.

Hope that helps.


You try to make out that you can comment on both showing and working as you say you've seen both sides, but in reality you haven't. You've only done a couple of shows and then stopped, that doesn't equate to you being able to know about the show world. You didn't spend long enough doing it to truly know what it's all about.

Just wanted to make it absolutely clear that you can't compare Woody and Isla as Woody's eye disease is hereditary and Isla's is congenital, therefore you can't say "so both types can get it" as you put it. I saw your later post but wanted to reiterate what Dawn said, that's all.

I don't recall you asking for a reference guide actually? However, I'm sorry to report that of the last 20+ years of research I haven't kept any references! See my reply to Rune above re breed history.

What did you think to my evidence re the lack of health testing in the working types? Pretty shocking, eh?!

If you look at old photos you'll see that the dogs appear to be the original Springer Spaniel markings and colours (liver and white/blaze between the eyes etc). The Cocker colours developed later when the breed was officially split with the Springer remaining in the original colours.

I'll have to agree to disagree, I've done some more checking and reading.

rune

yeh alot have altered. cresteds havent changed too much, the hairless now have more hair, and powderpuffs are now allowed to live lol,

I've voted working.

Obviously it depends a bit though, now it often seems working type labs are long legged, slender bodied, fairly skinny, whereas to me a working lab should be a chunky thing, but a lot more.. muscley than a show lab. Even temperament, and not hyper - a working lab needs to be settled, bounce around while shooting is going on and it's just plain dangerous.


Working dogs to me though, the ones I've met, while trainable - as people of course expect, are also very capable of thinking for themselves, I like that trait, I'd like to know if anything did happen my dog could look after his/herself, not follow my directions blindly. I like a bit of stubbornness in a dog!