Ok so Positive always works, train a Mal to walk through a field of sheep off lead with no predatory behaviour, use the same sheep he's previously attacked.

If positive always works why is there so many limitations on it? You yourselve recenly discussed a DA staffie who attcked you dog, you stopped the session and didn't think she had much of a future.
Adam

1st point. But how long and how well has someone to have actually tried to 'proof' them before moving on to an E-collar? i.e. they taught the behaviour/label etc at home, done it at home, done somewhere quiet, done it somewhere a little busier and so on, taken a step back when needed, broken things down further in the new environment etc changed the reward to whatever motivates the dog and so on...before deciding an e-collar is needed?

2nd point. But dosnt that just mean that they have gone too far too fast and expected too much too soon from the dog? Similar to my comments regarding point one? i.e. the dog hasnt been sufficiently 'conditioned' in differing environments properly therfore dosnt respond as should once distractions are there.

Excellent point, thank you!

Used to be, not now. Would e-collars fix it?

sorry should have added to second point, that the dog hasnt been taught to be motivated by a certain thing or that the handler isnt using what motivates the dog. The havent raised the stakes as it were, or have raised the distractions without doing that.

Just for the record, Adam - I wouldn't allow you (or anyone) anywhere near my dog with an instrument of torture.

ETA: of course, you knew the answer to your question; else you wouldn't have asked such a specific question. Bad form.

I Would not trust positives to train a high prey drive dog to walk through that situation - anymore than I would trust an e-collar.

I would not force a dog into that situation. These are animals - not stuffed toys.

The behaviours you believe you attain using the e-collar and are so proud of, these methods that are OK as you can see the stress signals....pushing a dog into a shut down mode to the point it might as well be a breathing stuffed toy....?

No thanks - I like dogs - I enjoy the fact they are animals with their own minds, drives and desires. If I wanted a dog that did not chase sheep - I would not have looked at a collie....or a Wolfdog for that matter.

In everything you have said - if you truly believe it - I cannot see you have any respect for a dog as a living breathing creature with its own thought processes.

ETA - Failed - Sorry Wys

The limitations are the limitations in the peoples ability and thier expectations
Yes if you want a dog that never barks, never pulls on the lead, never ignores anything you say then punishment works fantasticly, because you have supressed the behaviours
But I HATE HATE HATE to see a dog that just walks along at the side of the owner and dosent ever sniff, or look about or get excited about something
It is more than easy to get a dog to walk OK on the lead using positive methods, yes it is impossible to get dejected robots who fear to try new things
Personaly I think people should think about what they actually want before training, in the main walking on the lead I just want my dogs to not trip me up or pull me, when I need more focus then I have to give more focus - not fair for me to expect to ignore my dog for 90% of the walk but to have them 100% paying attention to me

Yes, depending on the dog a firm voice can be adversive, I wouldnt say hugley when compared to an electric shock but I always try and not use a firm voice with my dogs if I feel it will 'punish' them, more often than not I use eye contact, hand signals and whispers to comand my dogs

v easy to train - comply with the law and put a lead on the dog. In other locations work on a rok solid recal and then proof for higher levels of distraction just incase
The only limitations to positive training are the imagination of the trainer
totaly agree, punishment training just takes away the doggyness of the dog, the dog stops trying things and becomes a shadow of what they could be
as studies have shown they are actually less smart - and you can see they are less happy
Instead of trying to 'correct' behaviours all the time it is much nicer for both parties if you start looking for the things they do that you enjoy and make them happen more often

Not sure I understand what you are looking for Adam. Peer review of any of the three studies are currently unavailable because, of course, the studies are still underway and you can't review something as yet unfinished and unpublished.

If you're talking about Carthy's rants, most of his websites have been taken down now (by the hosting sites themselves), but the last time I looked a few still remained.
Most people take them with a pinch of salt - the guy is clearly unbalanced

If you read on you will have seen that she DID have a very good future due to the people who took her on being committed and caring enough to work with her and us to provide that future and to keep her happy and 'up' during her training.

You, of course, wouldn't understand the concept of 'up' in dog training.

Has Denis offered you future shares in e collar sales? Is that why you are posting his videos and acting as his mouthpiece on here---are you doing it on all the forums he has been banned on? Do you realise what you are getting into?

How tall are you----just for my own interest you understand

rune failed as well! Next time then.

If you have no interest & no knowledge of it , then why comment? thats going to be a flawed comment isnt it?

What of waste of time