Adam....do you advocate the use of e-collars on a dog that has fear aggression who, in her former home, was beaten to a pulp and starved half to death?
I would like to know this as I have a fear aggressive lurcher and the above happened to her. She was a very very difficult dog yet we mananged to sort her out over time with kindness and the knowledge that she has nothing to fear.
Timescale does not come into it for me as I believe inflicting more pain on a dog like this is wrong. And however long it takes is irrelevant. It's kindness they need, not pain!

Thankyou for replying.
if you think it was fear based then what do you think was his state of mind when there was the scary dog then something even more scary happend?
what steps did you take to prevent him associating the other dog with the shock?
Do you not think it would take lots of pain, not just a small stim, to overcome a reaction based on fear?
i can tell you it would have had to knock mia off her feet for her to even register it
what do you consider a reasonable timescale? how quickly does the dog generalise it to all locations and all dogs? how long before the dog is genuinly happy and realising it dosent have to fear an attack as apposed to being to afraid of the consiquences to show its fear - that he was still feeling

and can you see the difference? can you see why we are unhappy with the bodylaungage of the dog in your videos?

Hi Brierley in answer to your question yes of course it would for any genuine dog lover trying to do the best for the dog but for e collar advocates/ salesmen don't be silly, what you are suggesting takes time and patience and time is money .
I have seen the same arguments and questions about training posed to e collar advocates/salesmen over and over and each time we see the same responses, it is almost as though they are quoting from the same text (perhaps they are) .

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that by questioning these people we are doing them a faviour and allowing them to promote themselves and their methods.

Hi Ben

I'm sure when he charged my dog and I stimmed him off he didn't feel a lessening of the fear, initially. However after this happened and he relaised the other dog wasn't going to hurt him and he could be around it without attacking it and without a correction he would have felt an immediate lessening of the fear. So within a few minutes of first getting together.

His working level is 1 on that collar, his distraction level is three. Collar goes up to 8.

I would guess Mia would work the same, you can;'t knock a dog off its feet with an e collar, I'd just use the collar as described to stop her.

Adam

I just watched the latest video
What a poor unhappy dog, the only time she became animated was when he let her play - so she would do great with reward based training - but she didnt come zooming back to interact with her trainer, she couldnt make eye contact with him all throughout the training

I dont know what he is trying to prove there anyway, the dog had the e collar on at all times anyway, she already knew the command (when he hit her with the tinfoil she was confused and only sat when he gave the command to sit)
She was anticipating being shocked anyway

and tbh how stupid to train a sit that way when it is so quick and easy to train it without touching the dog with luring, targeting, capturing or free shaping
and with a kind rewarding method you get a dog who knows exactly what is wanted and slams into a sit grinning up into your face

Im sorry if you put that video up to convince people how great these devices are then you really cannont read dog body laungage very well at all - and you cannot enjoy dog training all that much either if instead of tayloring training to the individual dog you just zap it till it figures out what you want
I am v sad, I thought from some of our other conversations you had understaning of dog training methods

The flaw in your logic is that your dog did cause him discomfort so the little fella's fears were realised. Your dog may not have attacked him, but the charge towards your dog resulted in a shock resulting in a suppression of the charging behaviour. Looking at the body language on that video, there is no way that any fears or anxieties were lessened.

What I was meaning was that fear is such a strong instinct, all her focus was on the the reaction to the other dog, nothing else in the world existed except for the survival instinct of dealing with the other dog
A tickle couldnt distract her away from that

I guess you really believe what you are saying here, I strongly disagree with you, but I doubt I can convince you otherwise

That idiot on that video is stupid...his dog knew the command why did he need to hit her with stuff...I can get my dogs to sit with my voice and hand signal or either..the idiot. This is why E-collars should be banned, idiots like these who think it's fun to use it in such inappropriate ways!

There's that word time again, I have seen it mentioned by you before Adam .

Do you think when a surgeon looks at a problem with a person's leg he decides the best course of action in the interests of time , if this was the case I am sure he would just chop the leg off to save time but wait a minute that may not be in the best interests of the patient, he would be incapacitated for the rest of his life .

Well as far as I am concerned it is the same with dogs, time is not a factor when dealing with a problem, the welfare of the dog is the main consideration.

im not sure he does,he doesnt have to lack of conscience deals with that