I don't think anyone was saying it is wise to breed as many pedigree dogs now either as it was a few years ago and most ethical breeders of pedigree pups will know this and not breed in this economical climate unless they have a waiting list of people that they know can give a good home to their pups and know if for any reason they cannot keep the pup it will be returned and that they are in a position to fulfill that part of their contract if the need arises.

I also think most people who buy a pedigree dog buy from health tested parents and this in itself does not necessarily guarantee a healthy puppy or adult but at least you have bought knowing the tests are done and it is always a risk but ethically the right thing is done from the breeders and the purchasers side.

I have had a mongrel I lost at him at 41/2 to cancer obviously the parents had not been health tested they were an accidental mating he was my pride and joy but sadly he was not destined to live for long. My present dog a Bernese has a lot of potential health problems but I know this I researched before buying and his parents are both health tested for all the necessary tests and are obviously clear. Ollie may well in the future show signs of health problems within his breed but I have bought with that knowledge when you buy a cross or mongrel you do not know this as most people do not think it is necessary to health test the breeds involved. It can lead to heart ache even losing a puppy from tested parents whether pedigree, mongrel or a first cross can be but at least you have the knowledge what may lie ahead and too some degree are always prepared at the back of your mind for the bad news.

Your pups are lovely pups and I hope they continue to be happy and healthy.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but you should explain my ignorance, arrogance and where I have criticised other breeders, unless you refer to the fact that show breeds have more problems, something that is based on sound statistical data.

I think your pups are gorgeous and my only criticism of you breeding the litter, and this would be the same of any breeder, whether they be pedigrees or otherwise, is that you didn't health test and argue that you didn't need to.

My breed, (English Setters), is in the very fortunate position of having more people on the rescue waiting list than dogs that are actually available. People on my puppy waiting lists were very often on there for well over a year, I still have people contacting me even though I no longer breed...this is because I have a good reputation for health screening my dogs regardless of whether I then bred from them. Therefore, if I chose to breed again, and I only ever did to keep something, I would not be responsible for adding anything to the already overcrowded rescue centres, there are contracts in place with all my puppy owners. You could argue that by buying one of my pups they have left something in need of a home in one of the shelters, but these people want an English Setter or nothing.

So, despite what you may think I am saying to you, I have no axe to grind with you other than you not health testing and arguing that it is ok not to.

I think - if you search back over previous posts - you will see exactly how people have slated people who have bred irresponsibly - whether is is Pedigrees or Cross breeds - as to Border collies have relatively few health issues - I would suggest that you have really not done much research if you think this is the case!

I hope you enjoy your pups.

Well you will need to point out where people have called pedigree breeders irresponsible, I've missed it. I see lots of people telling me that my dogs are going to end up in a rescue centre, but that's it.

As for Collies, they score below average ii general on HIP scores and and low when you compare them to breeds of the same sizes. If you have data to contrary please make em aware of it.

AS already stated Collie eye problems are the result of a recessive gene, hence these puppies cannot suffer from them, and, again, as stated there are no firm figures on Epilepsy in Collies, anecdotally it *may* be slightly higher than the average dog, but this is mainly based on American figures which cannot fairly be compared to British bred dogs (significantly separated populations, significantly separate environments). If you have figures to the contrary please share them, I'll be delighted to see them.

As for Hip dysplasia, just as a note, research is now showing, although this is not definite, that the causes may well be strongly influenced by the environment. Although there is a genetic element over feeding and over exercising puppies may be the most influential factor in dogs developing this condition, genetic test will do nothing to prevent this.

*edit

Can I just say my dog (the collie) show no signs of pain or discomfort, she has exceptional back legs which she uses freely and with no restriction, she never show symptoms of adjusting her gait, unwillingness to climb, stand on her back legs. She does not over use or indeed misuse her spine which is perfectly formed and actually one of the best examples in a collie I have seen. Do you people really think, for one minute, if I thought my dog suffered from any kind of chronic or acute pain I would have bred from her?? Because that's the feeling I'm getting :/

Unless you have x ray eyes you cant possible know what conditions she has /carries or inherited. so basicaly you are playing Russian roulette with the health of the pups..

The feeling that is been given out is that you have bred a litter of pups with no thought to health implications for said offsprings.

The old chestnut is used often by those who breed without health testing, my dogs are perfectly healthy and its only "inbred" pedigrees that suffer from genetic conditions.

How old is your dog? Many of these problems don't show up until the dog is older. Your ignorance of both breeds is amazing.

Are you keeping both the pups you have left?

rune

HD is something that is not often visible in BC's, due to the fact that muscle tone can 'cover up' the problem. Many BCs with HD can carry on competing at the owner chosen sport, through natural medication and Hydro, and the dog only has problems when it is older.

Epilepsy - yes the evidence is anecdotal at best, people do not know 100% whether it is an inherited thing or cause by trauma.....however - anyone who has lived with ANY dog who has epilepsy will tell you how horrific it is, and would therefore do their utmost to ensure that they were breeding from dogs with no known incidents in the lines just in case!

With regards to your BC - I have a BCx who is now 10 - for the first 8 years of her life, she competed at HtM, Agility and even some flyball, never showed any symptoms of lameness or stiffness. She has now been diagnosed with a twisted spine, which she has had from birth. These things are not always obvious to the naked eye and infact it took 6 months of going back and forth to specialists to discover what was actually wrong.
(She is now on medication for the rest of her life as I will not place her through spinal surgery)

As to the eye issues - PRA is a recessively inherited issue, but as is present in both BCs and ESS then there is every chance your pups could be affected, if you have not had the parents tested. It is not just a disease that affects pedigree dogs.

I have looked at breeding from my BC - who has a lower than average hip score, clear eye tests and hearing tests, she has a good temperament and proven working ability (and so has the sire) - and I have been slated several times! Just do some searches about breeding - you will see.

Health testing is never going to be a 100% guarantee, but as as someone who cares about dogs its a flipping good place to start!

Ignorance is bliss!!

It stands to reason, that as this is a UK based forum and mos members here are from the UK, and have and knwo the UK Collie, that is what they base their knowledge on.

Sounds like SBL is making every excuse in the book for his irresponsible cross breeding without health testing.

And for the record, hip dysplasia is a polygenic condition (influenced by environment), but it is still 100% genetic. Over exercising a puppy won't CAUSE HD in a puppy that doesn't already have the condition. It WILL make the condition worse in a puppy that already HAS the condition. HD doesn't often make itself clear until the puppy is past 6 months old.

As for eye conditions, without testing your Collie or your Spaniel, you have no idea if your dogs are carriers. For all you know, both your dogs are carriers. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to say what your dogs are unless you have certifications for both your dogs parents stating that they are clear not carriers of whatever eye conditins affect each breed. Only then could you determine whether your dogs are clear by parentage.