[QUOTE=Moobli;1690694]I agree. A true high drive dog is a different prospect to a lively pet dog though, and does generally need a more experienced and knowledgeable handler.

What has surprised me is that you see many dogs in Schutzhund training with pinch collars on, and most of the police dogs in the US seem to have either pinch or ecollars on, yet the UK police have no problems training their high drive working dogs without the use of such training aids? Does anyone know why this is?[/QUOTE]



Some use the pich collar with the fabric cover on.... so to all intents and purposes, looks like your average flat collar!

I wish I could answer this question. I honestly don't understand why our existing humane laws don't cover abuses of power in training (like hanging a dog until it passes out). To my knowlege, if a person was beating or kicking the dog, he could be charged with animal cruelty. Why this Frawely idiot isn't in jail I just can't explain and don't understand at all. I think part of it may be that some similar methods are used to train police/military dogs. But don't quote me on that because I don't know for sure. I don't know anyone who trains police or military dogs and I don't know what kind of methods they use, but if they are as far back in the dark ages as a good bit of our other military and police policy, then they may well be choking these dogs down. Can't condemn something that the law practices itself.

That said, I DO think this will change in time. As a nation we are moving ever closer to more humane practices with regards to animals. We are well behind the UK in this regard. For example, we still allow ear cropping and tail docking which is simply barbaric (I've seen in done, and the aftermath). But recently the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) Has come out publicly against ear cropping as a practice, and is encouraging vets to discontinue the practice. It isn't law, and lots of people are going to ignore the AVMA standards, but those are mostly the old guard vets. The good news is old vets retire. The new grads are being trained on a whole new level of humane practice. Don't get me wrong, we still have a long way to go, but things have significantly improved in recent years. My thought is, the "trainers" that are utilizing these barbaric aversive techniques are mostly old guard dog people that are living in the age of Kohler et al. They too shall retire, pass away, and luckily, the are not leaving behind a legacy of brutality. Most of the new blood dog trainers are positive reinforcement based trainers. This is the new wave. Its only a matter of time before this trend too becomes law.

There's worse things for a dog than spending its entire life on a lead....in an ideal world they would all be able to have free run..but we dont live in an ideal would, some dogs have issues and HAVE to say on lead for their and others safety.

And speaking from an owner of one such dog... the thought of inflicting that type of barbaric correction on her... well lets say. I will stick to the way we do it.

Is she unhappy, NO

Is she hard done too, NO

Does she feel condemned ..absolutely not!!

There is a lady who walks her young GSD in the park, he is overly bousterous, and to be honest to much for her.. he has zero recall and can get into a bit of bother with other less tolerant dogs.

She has gone to trainer who has fitted the dog with an e.collar, ... results the dog is a nervous wreck, but hey he now has recall...she the owner is delighted with the results...I cringe when ever I see the poor dog being zapped.. tail goes between his legs and he scarpers back to her, and as far as she and her trainer are concerned.. they have achieved the results to the problem

Now those who advocate these tools , will say.. they should only be put in the hands of "professionals" who understand the workings of them.

But there in lies the problem, any fool can get their hands on them ..

Great reply thanks! I also think they will hopefully retire and pass away without leaving their old views. I have read sadly too much about this sort of practice which leaves me thoroughly depressed, feeling impotent, sad and enraged all at once, a horrible feeling. I saw one site which shows apparent photos of police hanging dogs for the smallest misdemeanours and if it was correct, they were like a group of men in a men's club or something. I could happily have - well never mind what I could have done

I've read about cases, well one case in particular, some years ago where an owner abused a dog in the name of training and in fact this was exactly why it was eventually allowed - because he had not tried to hurt it as such but what he did do was for training's sake, as he pleaded. That was what got him off and I guessed to an extent it had set some sort of precedent in US law, although I'm sure since then trainers have been tried if not convicted.

Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts, have a good day

Wys
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Yes, and such stories make me mad. The owner often is under the impression they have a nice obedient dog rather than one who is slowly altering in character ... they often start to use the collar for other problems too... heard of another case quite similar, too. Recall again.


Wys
x

Anyone can misuse any training tool. That is not just a problem with the ecollar. Sever injuries can be caused with a halti or choke chain too. In the case you describe obviously the ecollar use is abusive.

Yes some dogs have to stay on lead for a variety of reasons. But with some dogs these issues can be resolved so that they can go happily off lead. In this case it is worth trying is it not? Rather than have a dog who could go off lead being constrained to a life on lead.

As to the life "condemned to a leash" welcome to the life of all American dogs. We have leash laws in almost every city in the nation. Off leash dog parks are springing up here and there, but so many usually unrully dogs in a small space is a problem in and of itself. Often the only recourse we have is a flexi lead or breaking the law in public parks, which I admit I have done.

I don't think a life on a leash is a bad one. At least it would indicate the dog is actually getting walked, excercised, trained and properly cared for. I feel far sorrier for the dog that is condemned to a life in the back yard (garden), or tethered to a tree, or in a small apartment with just a few brief potty breaks a day.

We have leash laws for a reason, and for the most part, its for the safety of the animals. In most areas here its just unsafe to let your dog run free, between the cars, the coyotes, the rattlesnakes, the list goes on, it just isnt safe. When I lived in Mexico, Moxie and I RELISHED our off lead trecks in the mountains, it was safe and wonderful and I miss it terribly. But we are here now and this is the lot we've been dealt. Should I have left Moxie in Mexico where she could run free, heavens no! She's not abused because she's on a leash.

Moxie sounds to have a wonderful life And of course it is abusive not to walk a dog but leave it in the backyard/flat. I didn't say it was abusive to have a dog onlead, of course it isn't.

Can I ask where do the leash laws apply - is it only in the cities/towns and their parks - or also wilderness areas?

Not for me it is`nt....

I was encouraged by a trainer yrs ago (with Millie) as on the whole her recall is good , unless she sees another dog and her fixation sets in, I cant allow that to happen as she would attack said dog..... when the trainer suggested using one on her to "break into " her fixation, I thought about the pros and cons... do I do it , achieving a recall , when other dogs are around , or do I find other options...

You can guess my answer... After testing one on myself, there was not a chance in hell I would inflict that sort of correction on my dogs..

She has a very minimal time off lead.. we find places where I have a peripheral view of at least the length of a couple of football fields but the majority of the time she is on lead..

So if you are asking me, better to fit a dog with an e.collar or keep it on lead, my answer is the later.

what about those collars that spray something out if them th distract the dog?

ecollars imo should only be used if the dog is in mortal danger,hunting/working dogs.

pinch collars look worse than they are i tried 1 on my arm it pinches but not too bad and you would soon stop pulling however i dont use 1,

the rope slip lead is a great training tool if used properly you can control a difficult dog.

personally i think that whatever you use it is patience and consistency that wins your dog over ,i use a normal collar and yes my dog sometimes pulls too much.

i met recently a woman who had 2 ridgebacks on prong collars as the dogs neede to be under control,now you can say that if she cant handle them she shouldnt have that breed but you can say that about most dogs if they see something they want they can all be difficult,my old lab was a great dog and walked fantastic but she would go for it if she saw a cat.

sometimes it isnt just about walking to heel sometimes it can be to protect the public,

however i would never hang a dog this is not the way to build up a dogs trust.