Wiziwig
Do you have any more info on the staffie you mentioned as being part of the info you sent to DEFRA? I've asked before but think you missed it.

Clob
I was Doogle….they blocked (suppresed) information I was trying to pass to her but I got some info through....almost all my info posts were deleted or blocked on that site, as I am sure you know.

Doogle - doogle Date 02.07.03 22:45 GMT
I noticed in your deleted post that someone mentioned BIPDT they sort of implied that was the organisation she belonged to, it stands for British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers Ltd, Stockport. It is a limited company registered at company house, registration number 3949096 and BIPDT is a trade mark name.

It is two PLC’s one is a security company and the other sells dog instructor courses, to buy a dog instructor course they expect you to have the basics, by basics they accept anyone who has had a pet dog of any kind and has done 6 weeks or so obedience course at some point in the dogs life (or late dog if you no longer have one).

You buy a 6 weeks course from them and at the end of it you can say you’re an approved member of the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers and start a business influencing clients with the title, alternatively you can start your own Limited Liability company and give yourself a similar title for several hundred pounds less.

Clob,
There are loads of incidents and quite few cases from recent clients of independant trainers who have been told to PTS their dogs because the ‘postitive trainers’ messed up.

Without even touching on my own personal cases another independent south of London got some (I don’t know how many) of his clients who had had that experience write to their MPs and other parliamentary bodies of their experiences.

Last Sept on a behaviorist/trainers site, operating in the Worthing area, allowed a moderator to talk someone into buying an electro pulse anti-bark collar and deliberatly damage it by hacksawing the electrical conductor points down, when people tried to warn the person they all got banned. Potentialy, if electrical condctor points were hacksawed down there would be no resistance, without resistence this could generate a voltage of around 2700V within a hairs breadth of the skin, and yes, I informed the appropriate goverment body as soon as I saw it.

These are reasons why they try to re-focus innocent pet owners attention on to e-collars, they are just a blincker to hide what is really going on. Motive? For every anti bark collar sold a behaviourist is out of work + recommendations such sales generate, below.

Mischief-in-the-shadows:- Reply #3 on: Sep 15th, 2005, 10:41am
"Unfortunately although the electrodes are easily electrically disconnected, the prong like electrodes do not unscrew and dig uncomfortably into your dogs neck, so you have to saw the electrodes off with a junior hacksaw and file them flat. At the end of that, you have a sonic collar which does not false alarm - that's better than anything commercially on the market."

Again Lou, thanks for the well argued and rational debate.
I would say, if your dog is at risk of being poisoned maliciously, then the thing to do is go and personally check the yard before the dog gets near it and stay with it at all times. A torch would help in the dark, as would security lights. I still see no need for the use of an ecollar here, just people being more reponsible for their dog's safety. If the dog has been trained and is on it's own ( even with an ecollar on) howe would the owner know if the dog is eating something anyway...if the dog is alone in the dark away from them????????

No, I can't remove the dogs from their owner...but trainers CAN refuse to work with dogs that aren't properly restrained around lifestock, just because their owners can't be bothered. Training advice....put your dog on a lead. I would imagine that local dog wardens may have the power to seize dogs that are constantly off lead in public places or around lifestock ( although I'm not entirely sure...I'm guessing they would be able to since the people are breaking the law.)


I may be wrong, often am, but don't the manufacturers of this device state that they SHOULD NOT ever be used for aggression or fear behaviours???? On any level of stimulation?
A

Ailsa
I would imagine that local dog wardens may have the power to seize dogs that are constantly off lead in public places or around lifestock

Clob
The ones I have occassional contact with have no powers beyond reporting them for breaking the by laws and if they won't give their names and address therse is nothing they can do, anyway apart from the fact the rescues are overflowing, where would they go? and its not within the law anyway to 'confiscate' a dog because its off lead, only under DDA and a couple of other dog acts is that within the law.

Clob, in my humble opinion, IF an owner wants their dog to run free around livestock they are endangering the life of the dog and of the livestock. That is a totally selfish act on the part of the owner. The dog should be under control....on a lead, not with an ecollar around it's neck ( which could fail to operate anyway), the issue here is not what would happen to those dogs if they were seized...that's sidelining, the issue is that ecollars are not a soloution to problems of irresponsible and selfish dog ownership, in fact, I feel that their very existence and availabiltity perpetuates irresponsible and selfish dog ownership...if a dog goes for livestock shock it and it won't...hmmmm....it's illegal to have a dog off lead around livestock. End of. Ecollars don't get round that fact either.
Sorry, that's all I have to say on this as there was a long and tiresome thread on here recently about this very issue and I don't want to start going over old ground. Let's not sideline, let's not get into a rescue centres are full, people lie etc debate...that's not what this thread is about. ecollars do not save these dogs lives, they make them risky and miserable and the dog is still at threat of being shot by a farmer as it's OFF LEAD...it's illegal. ASny trainer should have only one puiece of advice for these people, put your dog on a lead. No dog, ecollar or not, is 100% reliable.

Ailsa
I may be wrong, often am, but don't the manufacturers of this device state that they SHOULD NOT ever be used for aggression or fear behaviours???? On any level of stimulation?

Clob
Yes all manufacturers state that, but, it does not mean e-collars cannot be ‘used as one of the training aids in cases of aggression’ – in cases of aggression they all recommend you get a trainer with knowledge and experience of aggressive dogs, you do not buy an e-collar and let if off if the dog starts an aggressive episode, neither should you tug on a lead if the dog starts an aggressive episode.

I have a couple I took on this past 10 days, who, apparently took 2 weeks to trace me as I don’t normaly take anyone anymore, they thought their dog was aggressive, a very sweet Westie rescue, but its not serious aggression.

They had the usual, one expensive behaviourist and two trainers, the behaviourist was scared of the dog (great another £100 down the drain) they could no longer cope and the dog would almost certainly have gone back to rescue, they're waiting for delivery of their collar now.

Personally I would not waste my money on an e-collar for this dog, but, for this couple and that dog combination the e-collar is ideal, in fact the only way to give it a good life in a secure and loving home for the rest of its days. There is no fee unless they get results, why should there be?

In that case...why are you even contemplating using it on this poor little westie rescue?????????????

If even the manufacturers say it shouldn't be used for such behaviours, why are you doing just that and leaving it with owners who are not experienced in it's use?

I see no need for these collars Clob, nothing you or Lou has siad has persuaded me of their value, all your arguments have served to do is convince me that these collars are being used as a 'quick fix' and easy way out for irresponsible owners. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but i am now 1000%, thanks to everything you've both said, against them...in fact I'm off to strart writing to my MP now.

Ailsa
I see no need for these collars Clob,

Clob
Thats is because you have not taken the trouble to find out anything about them or their uses, no armchair 'trainer' does.

Ailsa
being used as a 'quick fix' and easy way out for irresponsible owners

Clob
Its what is known in society as consumer choice, these 2 consumers above paid for two 'no fix' trainers and a 'no fix' behaviouist,and this being a free market economy (which you obviously do not like) have now chosen another consumer commodity. They have now thoerised that any 'fix' is bether than a 'no fix', don't worry though, they are safe hands (about time too).

Glad to see you're writing to your MP, dont forget about the 'methods' I have posted which kill dogs, oh and give a mention to those halties and neck and cervical damage caused by flat buckles, I am sure if you have 'seriouse' concerns you would do that without my prompt, also, spell my right when you write, some people keep spelling it 'Clod'.

I'd just like to say thankyou to Clob and Lou for this thread. I too think you have both been patient and also objective in your responses. Points you have made about the misunderstanding of training methods and jargon used by some trainers make a lot of sense.

I have read threads on another forum where you (Denis at least) have raised this topic and this forum has certainly provided the most constructive discussion in my opinion.

I'm not a behaviourist or trainer of any description, just a run of the mill dog owner (and formerly breeder) so haven't contributed, and more to the point, I've never even seen one of these collars, but in case you're interested I will give my opinion, based on what I have read here and other forums and from the links provided.

I see the value of a tool in its usefullness balanced by its disadvantages. I can see that this collar could be a life saver in some cases and a valuable time saver in training when used correctly. However, the potential for misuse should not be underestimated. I take your point that any training tool, including treats, can be misused but the potential here is far greater and the consequences unacceptably high for me at least, in the hands of the general public.

I see no reason why this collar should not be available but limited to properly qualified trainers, police forces etc.

Thank you very much Pod, I'm glad you have at least been able to allow yourself to form a better picture than before this post started here.

You're input is very valuable to me and I am sure Lou as well, thank you for taking the time to give us feedback,it's very much appreciated and good luck with your dogs, you obviously have a fullfilling time with them.