a the Macho thing. really makes me smile. The average trainers age is closer to 60 than 30 so totally not macho. Do you know what i consider macho are those young guys with an amstaff at the end of a leash pulling like mad and proud that their dog is so mean. We on the other hand can get with our dogs everywhere even off leash

b the extreme part if you want a working breed you need to have extreme dogs to get a quality breeding pool

I think it's time to clear up some misconceptions.

Where does the "praise only" idea come from?

Ánd, why do those who support ecollars or similar always think those who use positive methods tend to not have higher drive dogs? and does it really matter?

With any dog, you occasionally may need to illustrate clearly what is acceptable and this may be done via using negative punishment - this is part of operant conditioning, and means simply the removal of something the dog likes and works for. So for example the brief removal of an expected reward in certain circumstances. It can sometimes be devastating so it has to be done correctly though.

I've had high drive dogs in the past (my first BSD in particular) and this works very well. My current dog has a high chase drive but I can control her even after she's well into her stride with a Leave it trained totally, literally reward based.

Basically dogs may need consequences sometimes but they can be trained with rewards and,if really necessary, the occasional negative punishment (which is a consequence which, done correctly with instruction in mind, makes things clear to the dog) plus control of the resources they will work for.

Wys
x

How did you control her/exercise her/attempt to alter her behaviour?

I do believe some dogs can't be helped to the extent they can be trusted, in which case the owner IMO should use trustworthy equipment and exercise on long lead where safe plus using control exercises to help. Genetics may play a part here.

However, dog and human aggressive dogs are helped to change via behavioural programmes such as desensitisation and counterconditioning which is what they did with the Michael Vick fighting dogs

I've helped my own dog this way when she became an "dive in first, ask questions later" character after she'd been attacked herself a few times.

Wys
x

OK. But, rather than use punishment which can :

a) make him associate other dogs with an angry owner so he dislikes them even more and physiologically his adrenalin levels rise so he can't learn very well, or

b) teach him possibly what NOT to do, but not what you do want

you could use a behavioural programme to keep his adrenalin levels down so he could learn and depending on why he is like this, either become more accepting of other dogs or else learn in a relaxed way to become more obedient so that he can listen to you rather than become concerned about other dogs... (not sure if this is a real life example or not).


Not sure what you mean?
Either something is positive or its negative, the choice is up to the owner, and also the dog who decides what is and isn't aversive

Removing the dog or giving time out is something used by positive trainers as well, although very judiciously. In certain circumstances you can't distract (I personally put very little value on distraction, and it doesn't really come much into positive training anyway - if it does, then the method is being used incorrectly most probably! The idea is not to distract, but to train for what you want so you have a controllable dog who is well mannered).

Again, define positive methods because they don't mean "permissive" that's for sure

I think people have misconceptions about them and also often have no idea how powerful they can be once you really look into them and start using them correctly. That's why they are creeping now into areas which used to be very traditional such as working trials.
Obviously wasn't an aversive to him

Wys
x

Thanks for this post Promethean, because I hope it will help people to realise that harsh methods really are not needed, and hey, if they are not needed with the Malinois and Dutch, then they are most certainly not needed with anything else!

Good for you

Wys
x

wys, good posts as always

when i say i train positivly i mean i use positive praise (adding something nice when the dog does what i want) and negative punishment (take away something nice when the dog is doing something you dont want) the best example is teaching loose lead walking
the dog wants to move forward, thats its reward
if it is in a nice position with a loose lead we move forward quickly
as it starts to move too far forward i slow down
as soon as there is any pressure on the lead i stop, i take away the reward of moving forwards until the dog makes the lead slack

i want to join the apdt so i wont use training disks, i am sure they can be used correctly but they are just not needed

mia was a stray before i got her and v food agressive
i am clumsy and drop treats lots
i simply taught her a leave it then extended that to putting treats on the floor then dropping them from a little height
after about 2 5min seshs now when i am training both of them and i accidently drop a treat she lets ben go for it as she sits nicely waiting for something even better from my hand

there are always alternatives to positive punishment if you use your imagination and make training something fun for both of you rather than a battle of wills

I read a story recently about a GSD who was rescued from , if I remember correctly, an abusive home or at least he was very undersocialised and at times people aggressive and how he was rehabilitated using positive reinforcement.

It's a lovely story which shows how far a dog can be turned around using kind methods and building trust.

I can try and find it if anyone's interested? If for nothing else it's just a lovely story.

I totally agree with you Ben, but sometimes there isn't the time period needed/the dog takes longer than your Mia did.

With the staffy, we exercised her as normal (at least 3 hours per day), but returned her to her lead if we saw another dog. Her recall was very good (after we'd taught her).

IMO there was no way to get her out of the habit. We had her for nine months and the potential for her to seriously injure (or even kill) another dog was too high for us to persevere too long with something like desensitization. Also, she was unpredictable which made the situation much harder to deal with. Sometimes she would be fine with the other dog - then we praised her and gave treats. Sometimes not, in which case we would remove her from the situation and say nothing to her.

She has her doggy pals (Bryan, Freddy, Benson, Bailey and Jasper) and we think that's enough for her

With my dog, I'm not angry I found a method to stop him barking (and having a calm foster dog for 6 weeks helped a lot) and he's maybe 80% better than he was.

I'd be interested Janie

Our foster dog is fear aggressive with people because she has been badly abused. She came to us on Thursday last week. What I'm doing is, whenever a man comes to our house or we see a fellow dog walker, I give him a biscuit to give to her.

Yesterday, she met two new men and didn't cower or growl at all. Result! So, in that case positive is the only way to go IMO. The lady who runs the Freedom Projet did a home visit on Wednesday and said Boo is a different dog to the one she dropped off 6 days ago

Hi Sarah

This is the link http://www.druidalegsd.karoo.net/shadow.htm I read it on another dog forum. It's a few pages long but worth the read I think.

I just love hearing happy endings!

It sounds like you're doing a fantastic job with your foster. I wish I had the experience and confidence to do the same.