Ben has a totally reliable recall away from ALL dogs - including his bete noires black labradors. However, having been recalled and put on the lead, he will be vocalising at them - in other words, had we not recalled him, he would be attacking them. The whole point of introducing the e collar in the first place was to be able to recall him when we needed to, irrespective of who or what had come into his space.

I just don't know how I can explain the importance of the fact that after the very very first stim, he understood what we wanted - yes, I will confess that on possibly 3 or 4 more times over the next few months he needed a reminder that he must come back when we call him, but so what? Every single trainer, every single training method, would at least occasionally need reinforcing from time to time. Just like with our children, they need correction from time to time, a reminder to say please and thank you etc. etc.

We still have a lot of work to do vis a vis black labradors. And the way forward is with our friend who lives in our village and has a very arsey entire male black labrador. Rome was not built in a day, and at the moment I have other more important issues to deal with, but the time is now ripe for the next stage of Ben's training and during the forthcoming winter months we will be working on his BL issues. My personal feelings are that this is going to be too tough a nut to crack, but we will give it our best efforts.

But my whole point is my boy Ben --- it is what has worked with Ben - I don't care a fig, jor or iota in this instance about anything or anyone else, any other dog or owner, it is all about my boy Ben - his health, wealth and happiness. All I can say is that 3 years ago I had a dog who was unpredictable ... something which is extremely dangerous with a dog who weighs in at 45 kilos ... occasionally savage to both humans and other dogs - and now I have a dog who I can take anywhere, safe in the knowledge that he respects me, I have control over him, but yet I still cannot relax, I need to be vigilant because he has this bug about large black male dogs, in particular labradors. We can never relax, we need to be vigilant, but we know that if someone walks into our local pub with a black labrador we will be onto him immediately if he kicks off. He is "work in progress" - and probably will be until the day he dies. And I do not care a fig, he is my beloved Ben, I adore him and he is worth every moment of effort and angst.

Which is exactly what I have done. If his collar fails, if the line breaks, I still have total control over my Ben.

Can't you see that? I HAVE trained him - I have trained him with an e collar, whether you like it or not, that is how I have trained him. It has worked, he is not traumatised, he is happy.

When I am proved wrong - as I am many times - I am delighted to hold my hands up and say "gosh, I have learned something, I am wrong". I had to say this to my hubbie who insisted - against my better judgement - on using what I thought was an inhumane and cruel device on my beloved boy. When I could see with my own eyes the effectiveness of this device, I had to eat my words, and admit that I was wrong and my OH was right to have had the bollocks to try something that he too was not happy with. This is what being a true dog lover, a responsible dog owner, is all about - stepping outside of the box, against all your better instincts and judgement - to risk everything if you like to save a dog. We had no choice with Ben, if the e collar had not worked we would have been faced with putting him down, which was of course unacceptable.

You are entitled to your opinion - b ut to accuse me of not researching these collars is just bang out of order. My husband has spent many a long hour in email and direct conversation with Lou Castle who is the Dogtra expert dog trainer - he has spent many a long hour trawling the internet for every piece of advice both positive and negative in an attempt to make sure he is fully conversant of the facts. He is a medical scientist, so that is his nature, he would never ever ever try anything without thoroughly researching it first.

I thought you only used the shock collar for recall so why you are banging on repeatedly about all the other stuff is quite frankly beyond me. You are so full of contradictions, you make my head spin.
Read the bits i highlighted in red...........the research shows a hightened stress level in the dogs that the collar was used on.
We will never convince you otherwise, that a bit of time and patience could have got you the exact same results with your recall, because you made the decision to go the lazy, quick fix route instead

I don't know anything about you Gnasher, so can't comment on your situation with Ben. But saw the mention of Lou Castle there and had to cringe a little. That man drives me mad! I wouldn't mind his stance on e-collars if it wasn't for the fact he's so blinkered to e-collars being the ONLY way of training that he dismisses other peoples accounts and experiences using different training methods. He joined another forum I belong to as an "invited" guest and was very arrogant and rude and it was more or less his way or the highway kind of attitude. He teaches puppy basic obedience using the collar from as young as 10 weeks old. That to me is just plain wrong and totally unnecessary. I can't take a trainer seriously when he feels that level of correction is needed on a 10 week old puppy.

Just out of interest, if the collar became illegal in England, as it is in Wales, what would you do then? I believe it's only a matter of time until that law is passed here also.

Gnasher, you've been very lucky that the e-collar has worked in your recall training with Ben - unfortunately, many, many aren't and I'm sure you will acknowledge that.

I remember one very long internet interaction with Lou Castle. It was hysterical. If Wys is still looking in, she may remember how the story became more and more incredible as time went on to the point where the Rottie supposedly chased seagulls out to sea and was rescued by a surfboarder . Of course, you've always gotta watch out for those trucks turning up in the middle of fields too )

Yes, I remember

Dogloverlou has it right, really. I used to have countless arguments with him (during which he'd be as nasty as possible) but I don't bother with any of that any more as it's a waste of time.

I'm far more interested in things like legislation against shock collars now, it's much more appealing

I didn't say that Ben wasn't fearful Gnasher, I said I had no way of knowing about him in that sense. I've often met owners who do not think their dog is unhappy when in fact it is. Often if dogs aren't trained using methods such as desensitising and counter conditioning then they can behave "like gits" and it can be a sign of the dog not being entirely comfortable.

Re walks and shock collars, I suspect that Ben simply associates the collar with going for a walk and in that case (just as my own dogs used to be delighted at me getting out their choke chains for walkies when I used them) is making an association between it and going out. Walks are a powerful thing to a dog at the end of the day.

But that doesn't mean he likes getting shocked

It doesn't alter the fact that shock collar trainers will tell you the yelp is all about surprise and that is how they cover their arses, and at the same time enable owners to continue using shock on their dogs.

Won't get into the pack thing but yes of course, you are right I disagree - however, I do agree that dogs need owners to give boundaries and tell them what to do, when - but that's not pack leadership, that's just being a good owner (not an Alpha wolf substitute).