It may be old ground, but I do think it is relevant to the discussion.

Border collies bred from anything other than working dogs IMO will become diluted over time. Yes, show dog lines do go back to ISDS lines, but how many generations back? How many generations does it take to dilute the work ethic so much that it no longer exists? I will have to try and find the piece I read that suggested within 3 generations or less.

I love border collies, as do you, but as such shouldn't we, as collie lovers, be trying to preserve the breed? ie. Preserve the "true" border collie as a working dog. I think agility, flyball etc is good for a collie that has no outlet for working sheep. I don't just train my dogs on OH's sheep, but I also pay for weekly lessons. OK, not all collie owners have this luxury, or indeed are even interested in working their dogs, but the traits that make the collie such a good working dog, also make it a great agility, flyball, working trials dog, and also a great pet for an energetic family who understand its needs. It is not that I don't like KC registered collies, I like all dogs ... but I just wish the breeders of KC lines would be more interested in working ability and less interested in long coats and teddybear faces.

I have said somewhere else (possibly another thread) where not all working bred collies are suitable for working homes, and therefore these dogs may make ideal pets for the right family.

I also love collies very much, especially mine.
I can only say here, that sometimes, preserving the work ethic of a breed, has to stop (I'm not saying that is the case with collies,) but people still want to continue the breed..is that wrong? Coming from strong working lines nowadays is only important if you want to work the dog?

But how do you know what the pups are going to be like once you’ve produced this mixed litter? What if those good homes who said oh your dogs so cute I’d love a puppy suddenly decide well they don’t look like I thought so no thanks. Again it’s a difference of opinions of what is ethical breeding and anyone who has to advertise a litter is not ethical IMO (again only my opinion)!

Ive been asked time and again for one of mine to cover bitches one because is really is an extremely good looking dog but also could work, but would I? No why on earth should I stud my dog just because someone wants a puppy? One of my girls has excellent pedigree and could of produce some winning pups but again why should I put her through that just so someone can make some money of them? (No chance of either happening as all my dogs are done). Again to me my dogs are far more important to me than someone who might like a puppy from them but again that’s just me!

Again IMO to breed just because someone has said they want one of you of your puppies to me is not a good enough reason, neither is ‘interest’ it seems to me that to breed just because there’s interest in your pups is doing it to make money, why would you put a bitch through? Or did you mean interest in watching a bitch go through the experience?

The Guide dog assoc that started the practise gave it up as it didn’t work others as has been said do sometimes cross but again not for commercial gain but to try to achieve a betterment of the lives of blind people. Ive yet to understand the point of puggles?

Obviously it comes down to differences of opinions but to me if I have a pet dog thats what it is, its not a puppy machine or money making venture its part of my family, its not there to satisfy other peoples need for a puppy its there for me to love, protect and enjoy.

My answer to the original thread TITLE is yes.

Bearing in mind that the majority of dogs are owned purely as pets, whether mongrel or pedigree, the key things needed are health, temperament and trainability and that is where they need to be proven.

I suppose that if you are either breeding or purchasing with a view to showing or working, there is more credibility if there is a track record of success in working or showing and that whatever standards which are appropriate are met.

However there is no guarantee that because its sire was a champ that junior will be, so any pups saleability will revert back to the key things of health, temperament and trainability.

Does it??? Obviously I cannot speak for all farmers or shepherds but the ones I know are all members of the International Sheep Dog Society not the Border Collie Club of GB.

I have to strongly disagree with this where border collies are concerned. I won't discuss other breeds that are not my chosen breed.

The working side of the collie is what MAKES the collie IMO. The border collie is the premier herding dog in the UK and abroad - why on earth would breeders want to stop producing working dogs?

A working collie's inherited traits are also what make this breed excellent at agility, flyball, working trials, search and rescue etc etc etc.

I think the problem is that too many people like the look of the collie, or have heard it is easy to train, and go out and buy a cute puppy without any thought to what these dogs are bred to do. Madness!

Yep, me too, but if people want to bred their pet under the circumstances I've outlined countless times on this thread now ...why not?????

Breeders would stop producing working dogs as there is no demand for them outside of a working environment.
The traits you have mentioned would not necessarily be lost. Just to qualify when I talk about the working aspect and working collies, I am talking about ones that have been bred to herd for generations, they do not necessarily fit well into family life, BUT collies have other things going for them that make them perfect for life in a busy family environment...

Moobli
I'm going to save this discussion for another time between you and me as you know I respect you and enjoy talking to you. At the end of the day though, neither of us have bred dogs so have actually not contributed anything to the breed in the lines anyhow. Comments on the show line as you call it do get my back up as with respect as you have said before you have no interest in the show dogs and do not know their pedigree or history behind them. Your opinion has it's place, just as mine does but it does annoy me with comments of fluffy teddy bears. What's the coat got to do with whether they work or not.
My boy is one of these, did very well on the working instinct tests by the way, and he has over 30 years of careful breeding which has resulted in excellent health, hipscores, and temperament. Now you know as I do that most of the working collies that shepherds for everyday work do not actually go through the health and hip scoring checks. They work there dogs and that's it. I'm not talking registered ISDS or KC registered. I'm talking the day to day farmer that just breeds to get that next working pup to bring on. You know how it works, a working dog works on it's reputation within an area a lot of the time with in the farming community without ever doing a working competition.
I think a breed is ruined when they are mucked around with so much that they can't naturally give birth or their mouths are shot to bits because of human intervention. To me the border collie has been adapted to fit in with peoples lifestyles.
Some may say that if you don't work a border collie you shouldn't have one. I have friends even of this opinion.
My opinion is that as long as the dog is mentally stimulated enough, happy and of sound temperament (which many are not in the breed) then there's room for everyone.

Right guys it's time for me to bow out of this one as I don't really want to get involved in the BC debate as better people than me have argued it into the ground and still not settled it!

All I want to do now is to reiterate.
IF a dog has ALL available health checks (I would include a medical from a vet in that) IF it has a great temperament, IF the breeder is willing to take on after care advice etc for the new owners, IF they have good homes lined up...I see no reason why a pet owner shouldn't breedthe occassional litter for the pet market.
That doesn't stop working lines still being bred or showing lines still being bred, nor IMO does it make the breeder a puppy farmer.