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Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,367
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03-08-2011, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by BangKaew 
If you had bothered to read my other posts you would have read that we have never finger jabbed our dogs, I can not, wife will not. We did establish dominance using Cesar's philosophy though. Your dog would bite someone for a pssst?
I bet it would bite you too and that the only way you can control it is with food bribery!
Can I ask how many series of The Dog Whisperer you have watched?
Take care.
Seoniad.
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Location: Bad Fallingbostel, Germany
Joined: Dec 2006
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03-08-2011, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by BangKaew
Clicker training? That is the same as food no? My dogs have never been given food for coming when called.
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Location: A Scot in Thailand
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 474
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03-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by SibeVibe
Hello
Can I ask how many series of The Dog Whisperer you have watched?
Take care.
Seoniad.
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Location: A Scot in Thailand
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 474
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03-08-2011, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by sarah1983
Yes, I clicker train. However, there's a HUGE difference between using food as bribery and food as a reward. Bribery results in you having a dog who will do nothing unless it knows you have food. Food used properly as a reward results in a dog who does what you ask coz it MIGHT get a food reward (or toy, or a good dog or a butt scritch or whatever you decide to give that time). But let me guess, the dog should do it simply to please the human right?
Clicker training is an example of Pavlov's dog right? So when it hears the click it associates it with food. That is a great way and I would do it if I could. Cesar's is just the meaner, dogs way.
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Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,367
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03-08-2011, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by BangKaew
I have seen every dog show that I can see including most of the episodes of all series of the dog whisperer. I agree he simplifies things. Why?
I wondered if you had noticed that by Series 7 Cesar uses the word 'dominance' less, never in some episodes. He refers to the dogs behaviour as 'excitement' more. He also uses positive reinforcement and explains why it is important.It's obvious this is because of the huge backlash he has seen from nearly every dog training organisation across the world as well as The Humane Society. I'd like to think that Dr Ian Dunbar gave him food for thought
Cesar Milan holds no formal canine qualifications. I have watched every episode of The Dog Whisperer, then again with the sound down, and listened to every episode with no visual and only a verbal commentary. ( If I am going to judge someones training techniques I want to make sure I am fully informed.)
I live with a raw ancient primitive breed. As well as my own dogs, I regularly observe large open packs of Siberian Huskies. Displays of submission and dominance are abundant. But when I step into the dog yard the dogs do not think 'here comes our alpha' they respond to me as their 'human handler'. Through canine understanding and dedicated positive reinforcement any issue I have ever had is now extinct
Cesar Milan holds a captive audience, his message is now global. I would like to think that in time he will change this message to a more science based proven approach.
His ethos of 'calm, assertive energy' is nothing new. Good dog trainers have been using this technique for decades.
Take care.
Seoniad.
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Location: Bad Fallingbostel, Germany
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,180
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03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
I don't see why doing as I ask shouldn't be fun for the dog yet in at least one episode CM tells someone they shouldn't reward their dog when the dog is being good. I disagree with that, how is the dog supposed to learn the right behaviour if the behaviour is never acknowledged?
If I try to explain clicker training in psychological terms I get all muddled so I'm not going to go there
Basically the click says to the dog "that's exactly the behaviour I want, there's a reward coming". You can do the same with a word, a whistle, a hand signal, a vibrating collar, a flashlight, pretty much anything really.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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03-08-2011, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew
I am sure Cesar himself would, with hindsight, say that his way was not appropriate for that couple.
But if he thought it was wrong then why put it on the show?? That is a big problem I see with him - I dont think he thought he did anything wrong
Exactly. And they know by the tone of your voice. But it is more than that, I can be sitting and if I become nervous I will get a lick of reassurance.
Children HAVE to be seen as PACK LEADERS also and a dog does not tell a pack leader what to do.
How do children do that then? would you have a child apha roll a dog?
Of course, Cesar himself says his is not the only way. Just the way dogs do. I think any dog will do anything if it thinks it is going to get food. Bribery is not how a dog controls his or her pack.
rewarding with treats isnt about bribery - that is a common missunderstanding people have - if you looked deeper into dog psycology then I think you would see how really interesting it is
put simply dogs do stuff and what happens next shapes the likelyhood of them trying the thing again
so if something nice happens then they are more likely to do it again
If something nasty happens they are less likely to try it again
also if nice thing happen they are more likely to try different things, be more confident and actually become smarter
If nasty things happen then they are less likely to try different things, lose confident and not work out their brains
also - using the pavlov thing
getting a nice thing right after the dog does something actually makes the dog associate doing the action with the reward and actually doing the trick becomes rewarding in itself for the dog
positive trainers in all species actually notice that over time the reward becomes less interesting to the animals - they are more keen to get onto the next trick
Of course not now, but when he was under 18 months and before we had been using Cesar's way, yes. Let me explain a bit more. I can not walk without assistance so I can not train my dog the way I would like. Added to that the elder dog was born on the beach and no doubt from a long line tough alphas. He is mostly a breed that is that is half Jackal* , which we did not know at the time, and we got the dominant beautiful pup! This is a breed that when someone tried to breed them in America, they were so aggressive they were all put down. When he was about 11 months he started biting people that came to the house or people who tried to pet him when he was out. So I can not do anything and my very soft Filipina wife was, until she saw the dog whisperer, unwilling to make the dog know that he was not the boss. I can not and she will not do any finger jabbing or the like but she could have rules, boundaries and limitations together with other techniques that Cesar recommends for showing dominance. It also made a difference who was with me in the truck. He would not come back for one girl who was not that assertive. Through using Cesar's philosophy he is now a perfect.
I am saying nothing other than when 5 cubs were introduced to a male and female adults. The 8 months cub became the alpha of the pack, not the adult male. They were not related.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangkaew#History
Originally Posted by BangKaew
He never does that with fearful dogs!
Sorry not true - in the jonbee episode he is sitting in the garden with the dog and he actually states how with agressive dogs you will often see fear - so he knows jonbee is fearful, and he knows the history where hey dog had been abused and tied up with a choke chain in his past
My dog wants to either dominate or avoid new dogs, never submits. He is nervous of new dogs though and will not let a dog who is showing dominance smell him. That is why he got attacked so often prior to the young dog. The young dog is confident submissive. He will approach any group of dogs and when they charge him, he stands perfectly calm until every dog has smelled him as much as they want. He has never been attacked. He has taught the elder dog a lot of social skills and there is rarely a problem now. Before, the elder dog would trot through other dogs extended territory with tail and ears up and would not stop and be polite. If the dogs were adamant about smelling him there would be a skirmish. Perhaps shy dominant is a better description. Just like me
Originally Posted by BangKaew
Only because it makes so much sense to me. As you say, I am an armchair trainer, but Cesar has shown me that by the intensity of my energy and the tone of my voice I can be pack leader. Cesar showed me how I can connect with my dogs by travelling with them, me in the car. Cesar said a pack travel is very important and I have seen he is absolutely right. The elder dog is right by my window by the side of the truck. Our bond is from that, not from bribing and clicking at him. Basically my main interest is dog psychology, why a dog behaves and thinks like it does, and Cesar provides that. I have no interest in tricks. I love to watch the beach dogs interact and know pretty much what is going on. Most other dog shows are more about the trainers talking I have found.
but I dont see any animals in the wild just running and wasting valuable energy just for the h£ll of it - not a good survival strategy
Originally Posted by BangKaew
The other things that resonate with me is that Cesar is a very spiritual person. The You get the dog you need, not what you want being a good example. He is also influenced by people like Deepak Chopra and says that what you think will happen, or fearing something will happen, can make it happen. And I have seen that happen all the time. In fact quantum physics experiments have shown that WHO does the experiment and WHERE it is done influences the results!
Originally Posted by BangKaew
If you had bothered to read my other posts you would have read that we have never finger jabbed our dogs, I can not, wife will not. We did establish dominance using Cesar's philosophy though. Your dog would bite someone for a pssst?
what did you do then?
I bet it would bite you too and that the only way you can control it is with food bribery!
My dogs work for their food
and food isnt the only way I 'control' my dogs They can run a full agility round without a scrap of food
they come back when I call them because they like being around me - sometimes I give them food, sometimes I play with a toy, sometimes I am going a different path, sometimes I want to show them something they might find interesting
Originally Posted by BangKaew
Clicker training? That is the same as food no? My dogs have never been given food for coming when called.
Plenty people never give food for a recal - but there has to be some reason for the dogs to come back - either because they find it rewarding to come back to you (for some dogs a simple smile is reward enough) or it is punishing for them not to come back
I havent often seen dog/ wolves recal each other - but they do alert other dogs to come sometimes - but usualy when they have something interesting for the other dogs to see - they come running and are rewarded with whatever the dog is calling them for - they never call dogs back just to put them on the lead - or to show everyone who is the boss
Originally Posted by BangKaew
A dog follower does what the pack leader does or wants yes. I always give my dog affection but a dog pretty much ignores the followers. It is the epitomy of - treat em mean, keep em keen. Do not shoot the messenger
Clicker training is an example of Pavlov's dog right? So when it hears the click it associates it with food. That is a great way and I would do it if I could. Cesar's is just the meaner, dogs way.
given the choice why do you pick the meaner way? we are not dogs, why not use our bigger brains to train? isnt that more natural than trying to copy another species
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Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,947
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03-08-2011, 12:46 PM
In a wolf pack, when the alpha becomes old, infirm or shows in any way weak, the 'followers' (beta wolves) will vie for leadership.
Do those who believe that we can emulate wolf behaviour not worry that if they become ill, their dog will oust them?
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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03-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew
Clicker training is an example of Pavlov's dog right? So when it hears the click it associates it with food. That is a great way and I would do it if I could. Cesar's is just the meaner, dogs way.
..Here is an article on clicker training by one of our members which may be of help to you.
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=11324
...correction Cesar's way is no way for a dog lover . Dog training is about trust and mutual respect not bullying an animal into submission.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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03-08-2011, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew
it is the only way I can go out with them and of course it is on dirt tracks through jungle and fruit plantations mostly. Very few cars or motorbike. Only farm dogs
Is that ok with you Smokey?
do post some photographs of your dogs in the jungle, I am sure our members would love to see them .
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