he was stringing shadow up. like it or not, that's what he was doing.

well we will have to agree to disagree on this one. and holding the end of a lead is a very different thing to hanging your dog with it.

and also, if we are to believe that cm uses 'pack' techniques, then tell me when you see another dog put a lead around a dogs neck and tighten it. it's an old fashioned, barbaric method designed by humans to drain the dogs energy while he fights to breathe, of course he will then submit.

bingo.................

Hmmm ... you are getting close Tassle. I have said before that bearing in mind Shadow's breeding, his approach was all wrong. tbf, Cesar has admitted that wolf crosses are different from non-wolf crosses, (by that, I mean recent wolf crosses), and that his handling of Shadow was not exactly brilliant. We don't have a satellite so cannot get the latest Dog Whisperers, but I believe he has done at least one episode featuring wolf crosses, but not absolutely sure about this. I would love to see how he handles them.

As for holding Shadow away from him, too b. right !! Having kicked the poor dog, I would have done exactly the same thing ! I see nothing wrong with this, it is exactly the behaviour of a good pack leader. Even pack leaders make mistakes.

I am shocked you see nothing wrong with this.

This was self preservation on CM's behalf.
It is not the behaviour of a good pack leader and cannot see how it could be inturperted as such. A good pack leader stays calm, does not push the stress levels beyond that which the dog can cope. CM does this time and time again - for what I can only believe, is to give good TV.

As for Pack leaders who make mistakes - they do not remain pack leaders.

Thanks for that Ramble. It is the episode I remember, with the poor chicken. I felt far more sorry for the chicken than I did the dog. I did not like to see the chicken used in such a fashion, I agree totally with anyone who says so that that WAS cruel, and good on the chicken for crapping on CM !

The slap ? I disagree it is a slap, it is a robust Cesar "bite" ... a bit more robust than I personally would have used, I agree, but the noise you hear is the rattle of the collar and the sloshy noise of the dog's jowls. Although more jowly, we had a bloodhound when I was a teenager, and if you patted his head, his jowls made a slapping noise - like that noise we can make with our cheeks if we have liquid in our mouth. I think the noise we hear is a mix of the rattling collar and the dog jumping and causing his jowls to make that slapping noise.

Ok so where is that line drawn?

Gnasher that is not a jowl sound, that is a slap.
It seems you think CM isn't always right from your posts???

Yep, thatS a hit alright..not to mention the stress he is putting the chicken under..

i would have thought qualifying it was unnecessary. common sense should kick in and tell you that the dog wasn't 'doing it to himself!'

however as common sense seems in short supply ---an analagy. the dog on the treadmill---who could also have been said to 'do it to himself' after all if he had stayed on the treadmill it wouldn't have happened.

if cm had let go of the lead the dog would not have been hung---as he is supposedly the one with a higher iq that would have been a good thing to do. hanging on till the dog collapsed was not a good thing to do.

a long time ago i hung dogs---it was an accepted way of training 30 years ago. i never even thought of saying it was the dogs fault. the fact that you are trying to defend cm's behaviour by saying it is actually shows how much we have moved forward in training i suppose.

rune

I have said frequently in the past about the Shadow episode that I WAS shocked by CM's behaviour. However, having ballsed up, he is, as pack leader, entitled to protect himself. He does this by holding the dog away from his body, to protect himself.

Hal was an alpha male. He made a mistake once with his son Woody. Actually, I blame myself, it was my fault. We were sitting outside the pub, OH, me, Hal and Woody, both dogs on leads, sitting side by side. I gave both dogs a titbit, almost simultaneously, but Hal slightly first. Woody made the mistake of lungeing at Hal's titbit, and both dogs ended up with a small nip each on the muzzle, trivial, only just broken the skin, but each dog had a slightly bleeding wound. Hal had put such insubordination down swiftly and ruthlessly. Woody submitted to Hal, and Hal sat there looking anywhere but at Woody, obviously very shocked that he had done this. It is hard to put what happened into words, because it happened so quickly, and was trivial. A dab of tea tree oil on each tiny wound, and all was well.

The point I am making was that Hal had made a mistake, his reaction to Woody was totally over the top, we had never allowed such intransigence ... we, as pack leaders, said who ate, when, or not, Hal was out of order, and he knew it. Having done the looking anywhere but at us, he lay down at our feet curled up with his tongue coming out a few times. Woody lay down beside him, Hal licked him, peace was restored. The world was at one again.

Even pack leaders make mistakes. The TRUE pack leader will learn from it, and not do it again. Hopefully CM has learned that you cannot kick a wolf cross, I am not sure even his more gentle "nudge" is appropriate. I personally would not use any contact with a wolf cross in such circumstances, but would "claim" my space with my body language. This does work well with wolf crosses. (I'm being kicked off the computer now by OH - pack leader )