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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
I have had both just on me as I wrote & the TENS machine is one that is only available to medical professionals(ie not on public sale)

The e collar was used on me as a demonstration & despite having an extremely high pain threshold(like many women)it was bl**dy painful & I can only imagine a poor dog getting zapped for behaving naturally.

Give me treats, toys & a clicker any day
No, my TENS machine was loaned to me by the Physiotherapy Department of our local hospital, I did not buy it from Boots.

Neither treats, toys nor a clicker "does it" for either of my dogs. They are far too intelligent
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Lionhound
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14-03-2011, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
yup, I agree, which is why both OH and myself have tested it - and because we have bare skin, unlike my double coated furbabies, we can achieve a far better contact and therefore get a "stronger" reaction.

No you missed my point, you or your OH would have to wear a collar everytime Ben did and every time you shocked him you would recieve exactly the same shock.........................only fair IMO. You up for it Gnash

On the highest setting, it is like the punch that you receive from a slendertone machine, it is most uncomfortable, but I would not describe it as pain.
As I said on the other thread, when I trained as a beauty therapist we trained on the industrial versions of the Slendertone machines. My partner though it would be funny to turn it up full when I had the pads on my abdominals and the shock was violent enough to half me in two. Pain is the only word I can think of to describe the experience.
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
As I said on the other thread, when I trained as a beauty therapist we trained on the industrial versions of the Slendertone machines. My partner though it would be funny to turn it up full when I had the pads on my abdominals and the shock was violent enough to half me in two. Pain is the only word I can think of to describe the experience.
Well, maybe I have more FAT on my abdomen and you have more MUSCLE!! I found that on the highest setting, it was like someone punching you in the stomach firmly but not forcefully. I would be lying if I said it was a pleasurable experience, but it certainly wasn't painful. Pain is an unpleasant sensation because it lasts after the stimulus has stopped, ie, if someone slaps you round the face, your face stings and smarts for ages afterwards. But with an e collar, or a slendertone machine, the "pain", if that is the word you want to use, only lasts for as long as the stimulus is applied.
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Lionhound
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14-03-2011, 07:53 PM
12 seconds is a fair amount of time!
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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14-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Well, maybe I have more FAT on my abdomen and you have more MUSCLE!! I found that on the highest setting, it was like someone punching you in the stomach firmly but not forcefully. I would be lying if I said it was a pleasurable experience, but it certainly wasn't painful. Pain is an unpleasant sensation because it lasts after the stimulus has stopped, ie, if someone slaps you round the face, your face stings and smarts for ages afterwards. But with an e collar, or a slendertone machine, the "pain", if that is the word you want to use, only lasts for as long as the stimulus is applied.
As I have said before
With the slendertone on my tummy on a low setting it left red patches and it felt like it was burning my skin - which it prob was
that is pain

In my back the supposed shiatsu (sp) setting actually lifted me off the sofa, it felt like I was being very strongly punched
My legs could feel it on a far lower setting than my tummy could (muscle I guess)

So the answer how painful it is - we have no way of knowing
Depends on the moisture on your skin, the contact, the amount of fat and muscle, the type of charge,where it is located, and the individual

So what your dog feels - who knows
and that isnt good enough for me
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
12 seconds is a fair amount of time!
You don't understand the workings of an e collar! You have the pager button, which is pure vibration. You cannot set that on a 12 second burst, you have to keep your finger on the pager button to keep the collar vibrating. With the "stim" you do have the option of a 12 second continuous "stim". As you rightly point out 12 seconds is a very long time, and I can categorically state that my husband has NEVER used the "continuous stim". He has only twice used what is described as a "nick" - which is a split second "stim". I prefer the word zap, because I think it describes it better.
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rune
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14-03-2011, 09:28 PM
It isn't a 'stim' it is an ELECTRIC SHOCK.

rune----I have deja vu!
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
As I have said before
With the slendertone on my tummy on a low setting it left red patches and it felt like it was burning my skin - which it prob was
that is pain

In my back the supposed shiatsu (sp) setting actually lifted me off the sofa, it felt like I was being very strongly punched
My legs could feel it on a far lower setting than my tummy could (muscle I guess)

So the answer how painful it is - we have no way of knowing
Depends on the moisture on your skin, the contact, the amount of fat and muscle, the type of charge,where it is located, and the individual

So what your dog feels - who knows
and that isnt good enough for me
Well, I can categorically say that I had no red patches. Maybe you were allergic to the plastic pads? Or rather rubber pads?

With the Slendertone, I remember I had to moisten the pads. Obviously with an e collar there is no moisture involved. Ben's neck is pure muscle, no fat, so maybe when a zap is given, his neck muscles convulse, resulting in an unpleasant sensation to say the least. Which is probably why he has only had to have 2 zaps!

To use another species analogy, when my daughter was young she used to have a sweet Dartmoor pony, Pansy was a little darling. But she had a horrible habit of tanking off at a flat out gallop. She had a soft mouth, but something had to be done. I talked and discussed the situation with some of my horsey friends, and the recommendation was a Cheltenham gag. Gags work by applying pressure to the top of the horse's head. The actual bit that goes in the mouth is a simple snaffle, which is the kindest bit that a horse can have. The Cheltenham gag works via 2 reins - 1 rein is attached to the actual bit, ie the mouth, the other rein works by applying pressure to the poll of the horse, the top of the head, which is a sensitive part of the body to a horse, or rather in this case a pony. I bought the bridle, I explained to Holly how to use it, and to make it easier for her I bought an english leather rein with green rubber grips which was attached to the Cheltenham gag part of the bit. She rode the pony just on the normal black rein, but trhe english leather rein was knotted on the pony's withers in case she bolted. She only ever bolted once after the Cheltenham gag was used. Following that one occasion, Holly never again had to pick up the green rein, she just rode Pansy on a normal snaffle bit. Pansy had met her match in other words.

I feel that Ben "has met his match" for want of a better phrase. I don't like having to train him through force any more than I liked putting a gag on Pansy - but in Ben's case, he has only had to suffer temporary discomfort twice, and in Pansy's case, temporary discomfort once.

Perhaps this analogy will help to explain where I am coming from.
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Tassle
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14-03-2011, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
No, my TENS machine was loaned to me by the Physiotherapy Department of our local hospital, I did not buy it from Boots.

Neither treats, toys nor a clicker "does it" for either of my dogs. They are far too intelligent
Gosh - I'm amazed the learning theory does not work on your dogs.

It seems to work for every other animal....

BTW - have you read Karen Pryors latest book - a very interesting bit about how she managed to clicker train a Wolf in a very short session.
Its a shame you cannot manage to train your dogs in a similar way.
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
It isn't a 'stim' it is an ELECTRIC SHOCK.

rune----I have deja vu!
No it is not, you do not understand about "electricity" - neither do I, but OH has tried to explain to me the difference between current - which is what you think is generated by an e collar - and voltage. I hope to goodness I get this right, because I am still struggling to understand, but here goes. Current is what kills you, or electrocutes you. If you stick your finger into a live light socket, you will get a blast of current which may kill you. An e collar delivers electricity mainly as volts - and very little amps. An e collar cannot electrocute anybody or anything, because it doesn't deliver amps (which is current), it delivers volts. Volts of electricity cause muscular contraction - like my Slendertone machine. It does not electrocute. Electrocution = current, which flows through the body and can cause death of course because it interferes with the heart electrical rhythms.

I hope this explains how an e collar works.
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