Thanks for that. Thats interesting - can you point me in the direction of those papers Greyhawk - I like reading such stuff.

Fabulous name by the way!

You really think anyone here is going to recommend a breeder or put you in touch with a Mal that needs rescuing, when you have your e.collar waiting to use on the dog when it reaches 6 mths old

it would depend on the where and in what circumstances you consider the JRT to be feisty, and in what context you use the word feisty.

If you mean its feisty, because it attackes other dogs, or bits peopel, or shows aggression (feistiness) at any give opportunity, then NO it should not be bred from (no matter how good a worker it is).

If its feistiness and tenacity only comes to the surface when working, and at all other times shows no aggression, then yes.

A terrier should have tenacity, that terrier instinct and tunnel vision should not be an excuse for a badly /aggressive behaviour!

I never saw the original study, but it was often quoted in a dog magazine (dogs today I think)
I agree with Lotsadogs that those behaviours are all genetic, however I think the study and this thread is more about temperment as opposed to specific behaviours.

JB, I wasn't really refering to working terriers just commenting in general that a degree of attitude/willingness to react in certain breeds is generaly seen as acceptable were as in others it isn't.

Loki's mum
I have two jrt atm, both genetics unknow. I treat them like normal dogs/expect the same behaviour from them as normal dogs. However lots of people don't.

I suppose it's a bit like the estrel/flock guarding breed thing. Do we view cautiouse behaviour around strangers and other traits as normal for the breed or do we view it as unacceptable in modern society and breed it out?

Adam

I have a breed that was used for flock guarding as well as pulling carts and general purpose all round farm dog many years ago.

I think over the years the breeding was too try to breed the cautiosness (sp) out and in many cases it works but like in most things the odd one will retain its genetic heritage and revert back to type if not completely it will always retain a little of the genetic make up as Ollie has done.

My breed can be cautious when young and people who take them on are advised to socialise as much as possible as we did if they have not outgrown the cautious behavior by 18 months old they are not likely to overcome it in the future.

Ollie will always be cautious although with positive training and letting him do things at his pace and not at at other peoples he is now a lot better and over time and lots of meetings will one day become a friend. If he doesn't take too certain people he will stay out of their way.

Havent read it all, but wanted to mention that ANY behavioural problems are equally as important when breeding. A nervous dog is as bad as an aggressive one and should be excluded from any breeding program.

Lines can be very important in dogs, and nature can outtake any nuture that is put in, when I was younger we got a GSD from 'good' lines, someone else locally got two of the brothers from the same litter, all of the dogs went complety mental, all of them had human aggression, the two brothers attacked a neighbour that they had known since they were brought home, they had been fine him all their lives, on day he walked in the garden and both dogs just went for him, attacking him very badly, leaving him needing so many stitches to put him back together its scary, our dog Jobé had many problems, he hated anyone near anyone of the family, including little children, and would try to attack and scare off anyone who got near, he couldn't be left alone after two attempted escapes through a upstairs window, and went through a glass patio door after he was in the garden and someone came in the house, he then was let off lead after no-one was seen on a field, someone then appeared right at the other end (and its a very long field) Jobé just went deaf ran all the way down there and bit him, others from the litter too went mental all of them having problems, all of them aggressive, all of them a danger to themselves and others.

So I think that its very easy for certain lines to carry certain problems (the breeders husband actually let two of this womans bitches out together and left them when the woman was out, they fought, one killed the other, and the other nearly died from injuries, but they were doing good in the ring ) I don't think that she is breeding anymore, thank God, but like I said I would find it very easy for certain dogs to carry certian things, espcailly if they are bred by the wrong breeder.

And what do you consider "temperament" to be - if it isn't, as I think you are suggesting, a set of behaviours?

More confidence I suppose, socialness and good bounce back from scary stuff.

The herding,fetching,caring for pups is more specif (breed or specis) behaviours.

With the guarding breeds I do wonder if in an attempt to breed out aggression they have actualy bred in nervousness in some cases?

I defiantly agree that a nery dog should be excluded from breeding the same as an aggressive dog, after all most aggression is fear based and the difference between a nery and aggressive dog might simply be presentation of triggers.

Adam

And how do you feel confidence, socialness and bounce back, is determined or expressed, if it is not, as you appear to suggest, a set of behaviours?