awe scorpio, I really really feel for you to have such a quality pup and then this If I were judging dogs (not the dog owner) and stood there in the ring was an outstanding dog/pup that due to health reasons was no longer entire,
if the dog was the breed standerd in the flesh i would not hold it back for not being entire,
I would not put a dog with a bad mouth above it as to patches and gay tails ( i dont know as its not a problem in rotts) well yet anyway the gay tail could be a huge problem i guess for us in the near future. but we are hampered with bloody flying ears!!!
then again I am not a judge,
that said you go out there and let him be seen,
lets face it his qualitys could be stored somewhere prior to the opp!!! then not a sole can say well whats the point its not as if he will produce,
he could and for years to come for that matter,

Thanks Shona, thats really kind of you. He is now 17 weeks old and I just love him to bits, so does everyone who meets him. Only yesterday the vet was talking about him and saying what a lovely character he is, I said that most setters are that way but he said that Bradley is definately a one off in his book, he's got the looks, personality, and something else that he can't put his finger on. I am gutted that he may have to have the operation but I'm thankful that, if he had to have something wrong with him, its something that can be sorted out, it would just be heartbreaking if he had a bad heart of some other disease of the vital organs which could mean me losing him at any time. I think weighing that all up has helped me put it into perspective.

I know what your mean about dogs that have that extra something, the ones that you can watch all day they just kinda get you!! You see it in the odd horse too,
good luck with him and I hope it all goes well,
may bump into you at a show sometime and see the little star in the flesh, that would be nice,
shona

Patch, I had hoped you would have answered the question above, to clear this up. I have now contacted the KC to put the matter right. I have spoken to, and emailed Caroline Hallett (as it was her name you mentioned) and the following was part of my email -

“My understanding is that there is nothing specific in the KC rules about evaluating a neutered male dog but, in judging to the breed standards, the lack of testicles constitutes a fault to be considered along with any other deviations from the standard.”

Reply from CH –

"Your understanding on the judging of neutered male dogs is correct."


Patch, I do understand your enthusiasm for neutering but I have doubts about where your info has come from. If it was the KC, it seems you have either misunderstood their words, or embellished them with your own opinion and by doing so, with your statements below, have called into question the integrity of judges who follow KC guidelines in judging to the breed standards.

can I just add I often find the wording of KC rules and so on a bit confusing, its good that dogsey members who have more knowlage and are willing to help us newbys to the show world, where would we be without you lot eh,
thanks

I have been a tad busy

I passed on exactly what I was told by the lady at the KC. I dont appreciate being accused of not having spoken to them. When my next phone bill arrives I`ll happily show it to Doogiedog or Madmare who will be able to confirm the number and the call duration...

Its not the first time [ far from it...], that I have heard of two people asking the KC the same question and getting different answers, therefore your response from the KC being different to my response from them hardly puts anything right, it just confuses the matter all the more.

The lady I spoke to said that it would be `silly` [ a direct quote btw ], to allow neutered dogs to be shown only to penalise them in the ring for having a KC approved operation.
What she did not want to comment on was my belief that a dog neutered for having one or both undescended *should* be faulted as it is hereditary and is a serious health issue so such dogs could not be considered good examples of any breed imo.

As for the integrity of judges and calling it in to question, if any place a neuter lower than a lesser `specimin` based on abscence of testicles, yes I`ll question their integrity all the way because I do not consider that ethical or correct.

As to what is and is not within a judges remit, on the agility judges seminar and exam, [ which I have mentioned doing and passing ], all the way through that was the exact phrase literally drummed into us and as I made clear, judging in the various applications carries the ethical, moral, and contractual requirement of staying within the judges remit.
This has been said to me by Breed judges also....

As I stated earlier in the thread, were I judging Breed, pro-neuter as I am, the neuter status of the dogs would be absolutely irrelevent to me, the best dog would be placed first whether entire or not. I would consider that to be the only correct thing to do, both ethically and contractually.

Patch, thanks for your response. Could you please give the name of the person you spoke to and which department was it?

And did she say to you
"therefore to do so is not within their remit." (or words to that effect)

Sorry if this opinion displeases anyone but I am afraid to say no matter how perfectly a neutered dog conforms to the breed standard, if I was judging I would have second thought about placing it for the good of the breed and this is why.

To me a good dog is 'the whole package' and should have the potential to further the breed. While a neutered dog may have been operated on 'for health reasons' there is always the possibility the dog could have been a cryptorchid and neutering was done to disguise the fact.
Cryptorchidisim is an inherited condition and obviously a neutered dog can't be used at stud, but people can use the next best thing, a winning siblings of the neutered cryptorchid who may appear to be entire but could also be a carrier of the faulty genes, this would be perpetuating a faulty line.

I know this may seem a little harsh to some people, but to me those who show dogs and judge hold in trust the breed standard for those who come afterwards and it is up to them to promote the very best dogs to be winners and to go on to be breeding stock.

This is I hasten to add only my opinion . If I am incorrect with my genetic assupmptions Pod will no doubt correct me.

I think there is research that suggests is is the bitch sibling who is as likely to pass the problem down the line rather than a just dog sibling used at stud.

I will have a look through my files and hopefully post a link for reference.

http://www.dogstuff.info/cryptorchidism.html

Hi Minihaha,

Thank you for your comments and thank you for being brave enough to be honest. I certainly won't shoot you down as I started this thread to get peoples honest opinions.

Having spoken to the Kennel Club I have to fill in a form and they contact my vet, (if I do end up having Bradley neutered), and he will have to confirm that he has performed the operation. I assume there is a questionnaire sent to him in order that the KC can check that the dog was entire before the op. If they don't do this check then I can't see what good a letter from them acknowledging his neutering would be for showing to any judge. As you say, the dog could have been neutered because he has a fault which would prevent him from being shown if he wasn't castrated.

Lack of testicles wouldn't be the only reason I wouldn't breed from a dog that is an otherwise good specimen of the breed. If I'm not happy with hip scores, even though movement may be excellent, I wouldn't use a dog, nor would I use anything that had a skin problem, this is rife in English Setters and, fortunately, I don't have it in my lines at the moment. But then I've never had any trouble with testicles previously and have shown both Bradleys father and grandfather with much success. Neither high hip score or itchy skin wouldn't prevent me from being able to show a dog though so, although it could achieve top honours, it wouldn't go on to further the breed.

We are all in agreement that everyone is entitled to their opinion and I know that there will be some judges that cannot, because of their beliefs, bring themselves to place the neutered dog. I can accept this and will have to learn which ones to avoid entering under if I do decide to show him.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, I have found it very interesting and have appreciated the links to some very informative items.