Advice Please!!! Walking on a lead...

Hey guys,

I am sure this is very coomon but here i go...

I have an 18 month old Dobe bitch whom i rescued a month ago. She is very loving and gets on very very well with my wife and i and in our house she is great with verbal commands and hand signals.

However -

When i take her out for a walk it is a bit of a nightmare. To assist with the pulling i have her in a Head Halti and that has helped alot. I have tried the usual stopping when she pulls, going the opposite diection, waiting for the lead to go slack before we contine and she gets it very rarely but we are very slowly gettng there. I hve a bag of treats stashed in my pocket to reward good behaviour.

The big problem i have is that as soon as we get out of the door getting her attention focused on me is almost impossible?? Even with the most amazing treats - she is just very alert to everything else around her and i feel she is very tensed up. Along with thisis she has a majr problem with cyclists. When se sees a bike riding within 200 mtrs of us she cries, barks, jumps and pulls - she looks very very aggresive when this happens..... And it makes for a very difficult walk especially as we are based in Kew and there seems to be millions of cyclists here.

So are there any tips on getting her to focus on me, the cycle issue???

I have owned dogs all my life and all have been either dobermans or dalmations.

Any advice would be great, Thanks guys...

It sounds like you are using as good as any methods. Stand firm. Your walks need to be about training her, not getting somewhere. Bad habits take a long time to correct.

Hi,

I know how frustrating this must be for you. High energy dogs can be challenging and wonderful. The key is to try to get some of that pent up energy out before you try to do obedience. Some high energy dogs that haven't drained their energy simply cannot focus no matter how good at training you may be. So first focus on getting that energy drained more than once a day, enough to the point that your dog needs to lay down to rest after. Once you consistently drain your dogs energy, more than once daily you can begin to work on desensitizing your dog to bikes.

I'm including something below from my book that might help you:

If your dog is scared of bicycles, set up a situation where
someone has a bicycle far in the distance. Find the point where your dog notices the bike
but is not scared. Treat at that moment.
Keep practicing the scenario over and over for days or even months. Do not go closer
to the object or increase the intensity of the sound yet. Your dog needs a chance to
change the way he perceives the object— as something he feels good about because of
the treat.
When your dog’s response to the object or sound is excitement for the reward, it can be
time to move on to step 2. First, make certain your dog is responding with excitement in all
situations you can think of. Practice with a different bicycle on a different street but the
same distance. When you feel certain your dog no longer views that object with fear on any
street, you can move on.
Step 2
Gradually move closer to the bike. Over time, your dog should be able to be near the
bicycle without fear. By doing things gradually and changing your
dog’s association with the fear to a positive (the reward), you’ll be increasing your dog’s
ability to handle the situation.
This step may take weeks or months to accomplish. Just take a few minutes every day
or even every week to practice. If you avoid scary things, your dog will not get better.
A few months of work now will result in years of a happier dog and a happier guardian.
I’ve noticed in training that sometimes when you work on one thing you actually improve
several other things without even realizing it.

Good luck! I know you can do it!

Julie

I have totally NO idea what this means.

However - if you want a method that doesn`t involve standing looking at a bike for months, have a go at teaching the Watch Me command in association with your Halti.
Starting indoors, using tasty treats, you teach the dog to look at you (say, watch me when the dog looks at you, give treat immediately). After a bit, the dog will automatically glance at you when you say it. When it is automatic, you can use it outside, in conjunction with the halti.
Say watch me, and walk away from the Target. (Turn round if necessary)The dog has to follow.
There`s no point making it a battle of wills. Teach the dog that following you is rewarding.

Hi claire

**Assuming** the dog is scared of bikes, and its not chase instinct, then Julie's method would be more effective than the watch me method, as it deals with the dog's CER.

The trouble with checking in - for scared dogs - is you reach a plateau, because the dog gets to a point of being highly conditioned to the routine:
scary thing - look at owner - good/click - treat.
Or in other words, it becomes a supremely efficient obedience exercise of attunement between dog and handler.
Which kind of begs the question: how much is the dog ignoring the scary thing V how much is the dog paying attention to the handler?

Although checking in is a great counter conditioning exercise, is the dog actually learning to not be scared of bikes (or whatever), or just learning not to display the symptoms of this fear?

I would say the latter, as you havent dealt with the dog's internal feelings when he sees the scarey thing.

So come the day the criteria changes, which it will do in a spontaneous novel way, you have a dramatic relapse.

I tried the watch me command on a highly scared dog, all the time he appeared to be improving around strangers (i based this upon the criteria of ever decreasing aggressive body langauge and stress signs being replaced by happy smiley trotty stuff), but all the while I had a sense, a feeling, an instinct even, that he was exceptionally bonding with me as some sort of emtional support system, so I always wondered if he was truly over his fears?
Despite the apparent evidence saying he was.
Then a few months later, i had a very rude awakening which confirmed my instincts.
I thank this dog for an invaluable learning curve, so for me, classical conditioning is way more effective than operant conditioning, when it comes to scared dogs.

For that reason, i wouldnt even use a marker at all.
Just quiet happy chit chat.
A clicker would be ill-advised anyway, as you shouldnt click fearful dogs due to the amygdala response, and you you dont know if you are clicking for the emotion (fear) or the behaviour.

Therefore, Jean Donaldsons Food Bar method combined with William Campbell's Jolly routine are a good combo.

I think Julie is basically suggesting the food bar?

Good post Krusewalker - I too love classical conditioning and the food bar method for problems related to fear. It's only this which alters the conditioned emotional reaction (CER) as you say

It's not always easy for people to understand as we tend ti think in terms of "reward after good behaviour". I had to actually email Jean D. to ask about it before I understood it, a few years ago now.

It's a good method.

Wys
x

Yes, yes, yes. I totally agree ~ the emotional response is vitally important in all training & behavioural modifcation, especially with fear/stress/anxiety. Changing the dog's perception of something from fear to "it's nothing" or "it's good" is key to helping fearful dogs. And I'm so pleased someone's mentioned the physiology of fear too. All too often I think we are too focussed on the physical behaviours not the internal emotional state of an animal. Animals can learn to suppress physical behaviours, but this doesn't mean that the internal emotional state has changed.

And I also agree that his is one of the dangers of clicker training. Whilst I think that there can be huge benefits to clicker training in behavioural modification, it can only be used provided that the clicker is used when the dog is in a calm, relaxed & attentive manner .

Krusewalker ~ have you by any chance used the "Relaxation Programme" devised & researched by Pennsylvania Vet School?

Where does it say the dog is afraid of bikes though? We don`t know the dog is afraid. It might just love chasing them. So showing the dog a bike at a distance isn`t going to help is it?
If I showed my pointer a pheasant every day at a distance he would never ever cease to be excited.
How does this technique help with a prey-driven dog?

Sounds like you are doing the right thing with the normal walking, it does take time! Mine are not bad on the lead now but much better at the end of the walk than at the start, not just being tired but I think of it like when I am teaching my pupils to drive
The start of a lesson is never as good as the end of the last one - rusty and not focused - so you have to look at how much better the start of the lesson was to the start of the lesson last month rather than expecting to start where you ended last time
- hope that makes sense!

Gotta be confused by the bike advice
I use a 'control unleashed' type thing where I keep the dog at a distance far enough away that they dont react to the thing and then reward them for looking at it

I am working on that with my two and horses, walk up at a distance where they are both calm then I reward them when they look at the horse
I do that a few times then go away
Then the next day I get closer
In less than a week we were walking past a field of running horses with my pair happily playing with each other

The simple fact is, the original post doesn't say whether the dog is fearful of bikes, or whether the behaviour is because of a high prey drive & wanting to chase bikes. However Krusewalker's post does at least say that "assuming" this is a fear response, not chase instinct, then this would probably be the best way to deal with it.

But clearly a fear response & a high prey drive are two very different motivations for the dog's behaviour, invoking very different physiological & autonomic responses & very different emotional states. Modifying behaviours associated with these different motivations may require completely different techniques.