Yes I think what happened though is that the word can be used either in laymans' terms (and in the past before OC was really introduced to the dog training world by Pryor/Wilkes to be fair punishment often meant a smack, shouting, etc) and now the word is used by dog trainers and owners in two different ways, the other way referring to negative (or positive) punishment.

I can understand many finding OC confusing and can understand why this confusion abounds.

Also I think in the past trainers who used rewards were trying to explain they didn't use harsh methods, but everything got rather mixed up in the explanation. For example I remember the book Purely Positive Training by Sheila Booth which was basically along these lines

I think it's important to understand why people do get confused but also to understand the word correctly in its training/behavioural context especially when working with dogs and talking to colleagues.

If I am using it in layman's terms I tend to just use the word "punishment" but if I am using it in OC terms I tend to define it by the quadrant etc...


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Yes I think as we go along, we can see a problem and perhaps think we'd do it differently, I might not do the cat/cat bell thing in the same way now, for example, but at the time it was useful and I felt a "kind"as well as effective way of sorting the problem out.

I definitely agree it can be useful for owners who may be getting very stressed or tired; sometimes it is better to just put the dog away for a bit and that would be without a marker word.

We always live and hopefully, learn!

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Sorry for being stupid but with OC do you mean negative punishment as in for example clicker training (where you for example fail the dog instead of rewarding) ? What does it stand for?
I'm not English so I just want to learn the term, hehe .

Depends on timming I guess, how good the trainer is and how responsive the dog is. If you feel it is not working don't continue there are all ways better methods out there.

Millie used to get many diva moments as a puppy which were like big puppy tantrums.


I'd use a time out if Millie's behaviour was really bratty she would often take it out on the chest box and start having a chewie tantrum, evntually after a few months time out she quit the chewie tantrums.

I learn't not to argue with her was the best way to stop her from doing something since it was more attention seeking. She hated me leaving the room and when she calmed down i'd go back back and sit at the computer again. When she settled I'd praise her and give her gentle attention as I didn't wish her to get excited again.

It worked for me in a way I found ignoring her bad habbits and gently praising her good ones taught her to be as calm as she is now ^^

It was a long and often stressfull journy but we got there eventually. Sometimes it feels like it never ends but some dogs take longer then other to learn the rules. It helps when the methods are shaired by household members using different techniques i'd have thought would confuse a dog.

From Karen Pryor site

Negative punishment (P-)

Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, a dog jumps on you to get attention. By turning your back or leaving the room, you apply P- by removing the attention he wants.

Negative reinforcement (R-)

Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases, because that is the only “safe” place—because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed.

Positive punishment (P+)

Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, jerking on the leash to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted “booby traps.”

Positive reinforcement (R+)

Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. For example, giving the dog a treat for sitting in order to increase the probability that the dog will sit again.

Whatever you do training wise will have both a positive and negative outcome to some degree.

Nothing is writtern in stone it all depends on if it actually works for the owner and their dog. If time outs don't work don't use them!

Whatever you try someone will disagree with said outcome based on what their own experience is. For example if person 1 has had no luck with time outs they are likely to come to a conclussian they do not work reguardless that it has worked for others.

Can you give an example of this?

Time outs -
If the pup/dog is displaying unwanted behaviour and you choose to leave the room at the right time most pups are likely to wine at first thus giving some owners the idea of seperation anxiety/not copping being on their own. By persuiing still as I did said training method may work for you thus you teach the dog that bad behaviour is ignored.

Shake bottles -

Gets the dogs attention away from doing what you don't want it to do but may eventualy become desensertised to the sound you will have to find something else if you want to continue with this method.

Clicker training -

Probably the most usefull of training but not if your dog doesn't like treats or toys how do you get their attention then?

Teething -

When I was on cockers online their favourite method in teaching puppies not to bite was to introduce a soft toy to teach the pup how hard to bite,to turn their attention to soemthing more appropriate. All though it has worked for many I found this only encouraged Millie to bite harder! Neither did I find their tips of protending to whine in distress very helpfull I found mimicking whineing noises only encouraged Millie to bite down even harder but it's worked for many other and thats probably why they recomend it.

Their will be a positive and negative outcome on everything you try its just a question of finding out what works for ones dogs. I guess what I mean is whatever you try someone somewhere will disagree with it.

Unfortunately you are using the words negative and positive in an entirely different context than that of positive/negative punishments/reinforcers.

So you are not really comparing apples with apples are you?

I am struggling to understand your link between separation anxiety and time outs?

Food and toys are not used to "get attention" in clicker training, they are used as reinforcers. And only two of the many that are available to the trainer. It is perfectly possible to clicker train without the use of food or treats.

I think it is not a question of agreeing or disagreeing that it works (most things work) but whether it works with a particular individual and/or if you agree with them ethically.

The other issue is not the methods in and of themselves work or do not work, it is the application of them.

So that is when inexperienced owners say (insert relevant method) does not work.

My apologies, the way you posted sounded as if you were "au fait" with OC (operant conditioning)

Yes negative punishment is part of operant conditioning, see Smokeybear's post for a description

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