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Tassle
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30-10-2010, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by marley123 View Post
umm well check chains (choke chains) dont hurt the dog if u use them properly i use them for both of my jackrussels if we are out for the day
......but how do you know? It is very difficult for humans to know or see i somethng hurts a dog as they are very stoic creatures, especially when they are on an adrenaln high for a walk.
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ClaireandDaisy
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30-10-2010, 08:56 AM
It`s attitude isn`t it? Many people (those who lack empathy or have never stopped to consider it) think
It doesn`t hurt me. Therefore it doesn`t hurt.
So causing animals pain doesn`t matter because the handler doesn`t empathise.
It could be a matter of culture or education or learning disability or personality disorder or whatever, but once you`ve made that jump - that animals feel real pain and distress and that it is plain wrong to cause it then all these arguments about the merits of chains, prongs, shock and illusion collars are simply brought down to - if they hurt, I don`t want to use them.
Or am I missing something?
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TangoCharlie
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30-10-2010, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
but tango, your logic works both ways....see, thats just opinion, as you say, there's no research.

you have just assumed the poster meant/does above, they never said they choke or pop anymore.
also 'if you are still using it, it aint working' line could apply to hatlis and harnesses, could it not?

btw - i dont like choke chains
Which brings me back to my original point. I want some research to add weight (or not) to my opinion.

And yes any training equipment needs to be faded out.
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Crysania
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30-10-2010, 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
......but how do you know? It is very difficult for humans to know or see i somethng hurts a dog as they are very stoic creatures, especially when they are on an adrenaln high for a walk.
YES. Very stoic. My parent's dog just went in for an ACL tear. She was using the leg, but favoring it. The vet said the tear was a complete tear and he had no idea how she was even walking on it. She never showed how much pain she was really in.

The fact that I've heard dog's help when someone jerks on a choke chain and that I've seen plenty of stressed out dogs on them probably means they hurt a LOT because it often takes a lot for most dogs to even show such signs of stress.

I also find that people who "use them on themselves" won't put it on the softest part of their neck and let someone else "correct" them. They stick it on their arm or their thigh. Not quite the same.
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marley123
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31-10-2010, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
A check chain is a piece of training equipment. If you are still using it, it ain't working! If the dogs walk well then you don't need it, if they don't then you are choking them or you are popping the lead (see the vets comments).
it has worked, i never i repeat NEVER have to use them to correct my dogs they both walk by my side
i use them when i am out because my dogs have learnt to be calmer when they have thier chains on but if we are just going across the road they are aloud to mess about on lead
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wilbar
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31-10-2010, 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
It`s attitude isn`t it? Many people (those who lack empathy or have never stopped to consider it) think
It doesn`t hurt me. Therefore it doesn`t hurt.
So causing animals pain doesn`t matter because the handler doesn`t empathise.
It could be a matter of culture or education or learning disability or personality disorder or whatever, but once you`ve made that jump - that animals feel real pain and distress and that it is plain wrong to cause it then all these arguments about the merits of chains, prongs, shock and illusion collars are simply brought down to - if they hurt, I don`t want to use them.
Or am I missing something?
Very well put ~ completely agree

It's the same with a lot of other things too. e.g. dominance reduction programmes, dogs behaving as wolves etc. Once those ideas are firmly ingrained, it's very difficult to then admit (even to yourself) that you've been wrong all this time. It needs a paradigm shift & it can be quite a brave thing to change your firmly held beliefs. People that have been using harsh methods for a longtime, & appearing to get good results, & their dogs seem well-behaved ~ it's hard to then see that you could have been causing pain, especially people that really love their dogs ~ it's not a nice thing to have to face up to.
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Wysiwyg
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31-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
Hi
Yes, it was him. He had a silly argument. But concrete research is so valuable. But I searched and searched and could find none. The APDT leaflet had a reference to an old study, but again looking further, it was nowhere to be found. They have since changed their leaflet and it includes words from the vet mentioned above but no study.
You can say it's common sence not to use check chains but it becomes opinion. Thousands of people used them in the seventies, why dont we use them now? Has common sense changed? Some credable research with facts is hard to argue against.
Very coincidentally, I was talking to Robin Walker yesterday, we had lunch together!!! with 3 others!! totally coincidental, as we were both at the apbc day and had sandwiches, not the hot lunch, where most of 'em were

I can totally confirm that his experience is correct. I know it won't be "enough" for some, but what more can be asked, except real experience, from a "real" vet, in practice, who saw a huge number of dogs from police dog training with problems due to choke chains?

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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31-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
There is no research, just opinions.

Adam
And written experiences by vets

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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31-10-2010, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by marley123 View Post
umm well check chains (choke chains) dont hurt the dog if u use them properly i use them for both of my jackrussels if we are out for the day
I've seen plenty of dogs in choke chains, (including my own, back along....) who do not get hurt with them, because their owners use them more as collars and not as actual training aids....

I gave 'em up myself, though, along with Babs Woodhouse

Wys
x
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Meg
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31-10-2010, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
None of that is actual research comparing choke chains to flat collars for example.
Adam
Originally Posted by Adam
There is no research, just opinions.
Adam
What kind of research had you in mind Adam, are you suggesting a number of dogs should be subjected to harsh treatment and 'strangling ' with a choke chain to prove they can cause damage, isn't the word of at least one vet mentioned above good enough for you ?

I don't think it would be possible to do the research without causing damage to dogs so we can only use the case histories of vets to demonstrate damage .
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