This can happen if it's in the same place/context or especially if it is the same other dog.

The first dog does warn, initially, in that context, but soon learns that the warning does not "work" and so therefore ups the anti (it's part of the ladder of aggression) by snapping/biting/fighting etc.

The dog has basically learnt that warning doesn't work and so it goes right in. The behaviour may or may not be generalised to other situations....

It does depend on the context and situation. I don't think anyone suggests it's good for a dog to growl a lot - because the reason why the dog growls needs to be looked at - and thus the reasons for growling can hopefully be removed so the dog feels no need to growl.

It is not a good idea to punish growling, ever - much better to sort it out at the root so the dog stops itself

I'd agree with this.

Wys
x

So your girl learned that that the warning didn't work so skipped that step. There was a warning in the first place, she just learned it was a pointless one. I know exactly what you mean about the bad mannered dogs that can create this situation.
That is hard to do sometimes though huh?

I do think it is fine for a dog to growl, but that growl has to be listened to. We have to look at why the dog felt the need and as you say either protect it or avoid a similar situation in future (or both).
I know when Tango was attacked, we should have stepped in sooner. I will do in future. It was totally caused by a bad mannered small dog in a busy park.


Sometimes we cannot pick up on the warnings dogs issue to others, they can be so subtle.
I have every sympathy with you as Tango is very similar at the moment...although not attacking, just overexcited.


To an extent I agree with this. The dog that ahd a go at Tango has been going to this park since it had it's jabs...it is allowed to run up to every dog and every person (regardless of if dogs are on the lead...) IT does not recall until it has said hello/had a treat or both, but the owner thinks that is fine and that her dog has a good recall. There are lots of people like her.

Yes...I think there is such a thing as over socialisation...or at least owners having no real control over it. I have learned that socialisation is brilliant...in controlled circumstances and in controlled 'spurts' (if you see what I mean!!!)


Yes it can create a nightmare scenario...but I do think another dog is able to read the signals if one isn't friendly in the main. You may not have seen the signals..or smelt them ( ) but they will have been there.
We are also avoiding heavily populated areas at the moment...as people are allowing their dogs to come up to Tango all the time, despite it being obvious we are working with her, bless her. She is now quite hyper if she goes there so is starting walks too stressed...so we are avoiding it for now. Such a shame.
I think it sounds like some dogs were getting over excited...the more fearful dogs felt it and it all kicked off.

Sorry I disagree with you, I have been walking along the street with my dog on lead when a Rottweiler who my dog did not see charged across the road and bypassed me and my other dog and latched onto my ill dogs throat this was unprovoked.
There is also a white cross bull terrier that attacks on site any dog it sees male or female. In my area there are many unbalanced dogs that go around attacking dogs on lead on site, these are all fearful dogs, who when challenged will run away.

have to agree with this,

I have not had to deal with dogs attacking other dogs they see as weak or unstable, I tend to find most dogs that attack, attack randomly, or any dog they see without fail.

my own dogs, who I see as well balanced are often used to help problem dogs that could be called unstable or weak, my view being that well balanced nice dogs, should never attack,

my own observations of working with dogs, many of which are aggressive is..... I always see a warning, some very obvious, some not,
rotties are a classic example of a hard to read breed, who seem to give little or no warning, but.........the warnings are there, they are just very subtle, many owners find it hard to read dogs, or breeds they are not familiar with,

that said, I have came across one dog that gave no warning, or no warning that I could see this was human aggressive though,.

as with all things, dogs are animals, so anything can happen

I do tend to think that in normal circumstances a 'normal' dog is resiliant enough not to become reactive.

I'll tell the whole story with my dog as it might be helpful to someone else. I'm still not certain I've completely got to the bottom of things but we seem to be doing very well in recent weeks.

Our oldest adored playing with other dogs. She'd run chase and playfight endlessly. She just couldn't get enough. We used to meet up with a group of dogs and owners in a huge, safe meadow in our local park. She adored it. And we loved to watch her. All the dogs were nice and the dog owners responsible. The dogs were always supervised and things were never allowed to get out of hand. I trusted our girl completely around other dogs. She always knew how to behave and was NEVER bothered by other dogs...even badly behaved or unstable dogs. It was the perfect lifestyle for a Beagle. She'd already started a few doggy activities which she adored and every day she got to run free and play....doing the things that Beagles were bred to do.

When she was a year old we got our second dog. We were so careful over the introductions. They were always supervised. They each had loads of separate quality time with us. They bonded well. But there were upsets...

Beagles are terrible chewers, but our girl NEVER swallowed things. She'd destroy and spit out. Within days of the puppy ariving she's started to gulp things down. Within three weeks of having the puppy she was getting stomach surgery to remove a foreign body from her stomach. For a couple of months after surgery it was a full time job trying to make sure she didn't pick up anything in the park and swallow it. She even started stealing things out of the pockets of passers by and swallowing them. We assumed it was a reaction to having to share with the new puppy.

Her off-lead training went down the tubes. If we called her to us whilst out in the park with a group of dogs she'd start sniffing the ground and wander off. Then she'd take off on a Beagle-only adventure with our pup dissapearing out of sight for 10 minutes at a time.

We were forced to keep them away from the group and work hard on training. These habits could get her (or both of them) killed.

Our goal was to get them back playing with the group of dogs in the meadow. That's what they loved. It was a Beagles dream life.

It was during these training sessions (in the same meadow) that we 'created' the aggression problem. We assumed that she was enjoying the training so much that she didn't want other dogs butting in. I'd say it developed over a period of several months. Always spaced weeks or months apart, and always something that you could explain away. It was provoked.

At some point I remember noticing that she was very submisive when she met other dogs. But once the greeting was over she was her normal, boistrous, confident self. I assumed it was just good doggy manners. But I do recall that over the months people would frequently comment "Oh, what's the matter with her!" or "poor thing, she's frightened". I always answered "She's fine - she always does that but as soon as the greeting is over she's full of confidence". I thought nothing of it at the time.

We also started to notice some other little signs that something wasn't right. When Beagle racing (her once favorite sport) started up in the spring she 'told off' a couple of once best buddies. Just a mild little "get lost", but they did nothing wrong. She was being touchy. Racing had been heavily pulicised (largely by me!) and we had lots of new dogs. Some were a bit unruly, but basically nice dogs. On the track they sometimes wanted to play instead of chase the lure. Our girl was deadly serious about the sport and didn't take kindly to this. She wasn't aggressive, but would run back to the start line to me when they jostled her. This was SO out of character. She was always a tough little cookie that loved nothing more than a bit of good old rough and tumble with ANY dog! Eventually we stopped letting her race as we felt it was bad for her. But none of the other dogs had a problem with it.

I think there were a couple of other little incidents in varous places that just didn't seem quite right. All things that most people would say "My dogs do that all the time - don't worry about it!". But it was out of character for my dog. Something was going very wrong.

Always you could blame it on the other dog. She NEVER started anything. The most recent incidents seemed the worst because we'd had no problem for weeks on end and we though the problem was solved. We were passing through the meadow and as our girl had been so good I let her have a play with a group of old pals that were there. She tried to start a chase and picked up a toy. The other dogs couldn't keep up so she kept getting closer and giving them chances. Then one of them got close and all hell broke loose - they were snarling and rolling about. We pulled them apart quick. The other dog was fine but ours had some little nicks on her. I appologised profusely - I couldn't believe it but it really seemed that our girl had engineered the whole situation to cause a fight. She enticed the other dog to get close and then turned on it.

The next day we walked through the same spot. There were a couple of aquantances there. I explained what had happened the day before and asked people if they minded if I let her off-lead. They were fine with it. One little dog kept pestering her to play. I assumed that eventually she'd be up for it. But instead she turned on him snarling. We had a hard time pulling them apart, but again there was no damage done. I was horified! This dog had done nothing wrong but pester her to play. We had an aggresive dog. I couldn't believe it.

Trainers that knew her insisted she wasn't aggresive. It must be the other dogs they said. There's something you're missing. She is NOT in any way shape or form an aggresive dog. I wasn't convinced.

A few days later we went to an activity and the little dog that she'd had the first 'fight' with with was there. The dog had a HUGE problem. She was snarling at everything that came within 10 yards of her. A real problem. I was informed that this wasn't out of character for her. I'd assumed that my girl had started tje fogjt but almost certainly it had been the other way around having seen the way this dog was behaving. The owner neglected to mention this when I was appologising so much!

Assuming that she'd been attacked the day before whilst trying to play it's hardly surprising that she turned on a dog that was pestering her the very next day at the very same spot.

Anyway, at this point we decided that our goal of getting her 'back playing in the meadow with the pack' was out of the question. We started taking them to other parks with fewer dogs. Within days she was a different dog. Much more relaxed and not running off when off-lead. She was no longer submissive when she met other dogs. She'll tollerate pestering. Even when we do go somewhere with lots of dogs she's fine with it. We haven't had a problem in ages.

My conclusion is that we 'over socialised' her. She adored playing with other dogs and we'd made sure we gave her ample opportunity to play with doggy pals. Her life was wonderful. When we got the new pup she still had that active social life, but instead of coming home to a quiet house and mum and dad she was coming home to a boistrous, pesky puppy that was getting a share of HER things! We were so fixated on keeping her with the group because we thought she loved it when in fact all the signs were telling us "I don't want to be with all these dogs".

The sports and conrolled activities she's fine with - she gets to hang out with dogs she knows but they don't get to pester her. The occasional doggy gathering is fine. But she doesn't want dogs in her face day in and day out on her daily walks. She'd probably still be fine with it if she didn't have another dog at home. But she's got a stable pack and she loves her pesky little brother. She doesn't need anything from other dogs and so the negatives outweight the positives for her. She only wants them in small doses.

Anyway, my point for bringing up the subject was just as an idea for Ben McFuzzylugs to consider (trying too hard to socialise??). She knows her dog best but sometimes I find that a comment or idea from someone else can make me realise that there's something i've missed. Other time I just think they're just talking crap

I wouldn't think a 'stable' or balanced dog would 'attack' another dog. By attack I mean puncture the skin with a bite.

I know my two react to dogs who are over-excited, but not in an attacking way: they will both try to 'dominate' the over-excited dog by getting on top of it or pinning it down.

They do this to each other and I've seen them do it to other dogs.

Bryan will 'tell Tilly off' by nipping her neck if she barks at the hoover. He also 'rounds up' dogs who've wandered too far away from the pack.

But neither of them 'attack'.

Hi Scarter.Again an interesting and well thought out post that I just don't have to time to do justice to.
My initial thought on it is that not only has your dog had a lot of change in her life (with the introduction of a new pup) she has had it at a time in her life when she will have been undergoing yet another fear period...and starting to reach maturity, when her feelings about herself and other dogs around her will inevitably alter.On top of that she also seemed to become possessive of toys (thus the surgery..). She has had a great deal to deal with.
I think she is lucky to have an owner that is happy to go out of their way to find soloutions and work with her.

This really interested me Ramble. Off topic I know, but do dogs think about 'themselves' as an object? I always thought that only humans had a self-concept?

Or is it more to do with her place in the pack?

I think I didn't explain properly...or very well. I think dogs do have an awareness of themselves and I do think they have 'feelings' , I think adolescent dogs undergo huge changes...and have fear periods, therefore perhaps I would have been better saying her perception of her place in the world and how she slots in has altered...rather than her perception of herself...although in many ways that's the same thing (I am rushing again and so could well be tying myself in knots..).

I am wary of saying her position in the 'pack' as I don't think it is that...

Well, then say no growling. No warning is vastly different. There are always warnings that a dog is unconfortable, they don't have the capacity to pretend.

What is often the case with insecure dogs is that they don't got through the whole progression of warnings because the emotional load is to great. Instead they give one or two cues and then snap.

But even with these dogs, it is not really a fight - it is for the most part a ritual. When you consider the damage they can do with one bite, a real fight would result in copious amount of spilled blood.


Intrusion into their perceived territory IS provocation. Don't these dogs bark first? Without warning would be something similar to what my dogs do when they are hunting. They follow, stalk, stealth approach and then rush for the kill. NO WARNING (to the target)