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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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21-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
I'd just use the e collar.
They are adjustable so high sensitivity isn't an issue ect.
Once the dog realised that his behaviour controls the stim from the collar his confidence will go up anyway.
Adam
I would like to point out that these unnecessary devices have been banned by the Welsh Assembly (and that in Wales anyone caught using the devices faces a fine of up to £20,000 or six months in prison), that they are outlawed by the major canine welfare and training organisations and there is a good chance they will be banned in the rest of the UK too.
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Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
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21-02-2011, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
We're not talking about living together though are we.
We're talking about simple bit of training.
Adam
I think most of us are training dogs we live with and the BEST way to train is to develop a relationship of trust with the dog. Dogs who trust you are willing to try new things and willing to work for and with you.
Dogs who do not trust you, shut down and if they do anything, they do it out of fear.
Why anyone prefers the latter is beyond me.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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21-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Reisu
I fear you underestimate his wimpiness, he'll squeal at the slightest thing
but thanks for the insight. I'll be sticking with my sassy 'I'll-come-back-if-you-gimme-some-chicken' method though 
Adam
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Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
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21-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
I'd just use the e collar.
They are adjustable so high sensitivity isn't an issue ect.
Once the dog realised that his behaviour controls the stim from the collar his confidence will go up anyway.
Adam
WHY DO WE ALLOW THIS GUY ON THIS SITE???!!!!
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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21-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania
You'd have them scared to do anything.
And I thought it only took ONE time Adam. Now it takes a few weeks? Hmmmm...me thinks you know...let me think...um...NOTHING.
As always. Why don't you just shut up? Seriously.
It may take one time to condition avoidance to something (gator or snakes) but for recall you just build up gradually.
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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21-02-2011, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley
It's the trainer's behaviour that controls the stim. It's the trainer that controls the intensity and when it is applied. It's the trainer who will gain confidence in pushing the button.
All the dog will gain is discomfort and pain until it has worked out through trial and error what makes the trainer stop pushing the damned button.
Suggestion for you Adam. Find out where your nearest Deaf Club is and go along to the next get together. They all welcome hearing people going along. Go in there and see how much you understand of what is going on. Then try playing a game of bingo with them. Something you already know how to do, but see how much more difficult it is to play the game without number calling in the way you know. Once you've done this, you might just have a tiny idea of the difficulty dogs have in understanding what we want from them. Then reflect a while and see if you still think it fair to punish dogs for not understanding our requests for them to do things that they truly find incomprehensible until they are guided and taught 'how to play our game'.
Adam
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Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
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21-02-2011, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Were have I ever said that.
It may take one time to condition avoidance to something (gator or snakes) but for recall you just build up gradually.
Adam
You start with some place that a recall is easy in and then work up to distractions. It doesn't take a lot of time for many dogs, but it happens gradually.
So if using a shock collar is gradual and using positive reinforcement is gradual, why the freaking *bleep* do you use pain?
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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21-02-2011, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania
Or the dog will shut down. Likely they will shut down.
WHY DO WE ALLOW THIS GUY ON THIS SITE???!!!!
I have worked with already shut down dogs, once they understand they control the stim they relax and open up.
Adam
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Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,962
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21-02-2011, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Its the dogs behaviour that controls the trainer!
Adam
Certainly not the dog who is doing what comes naturally to it.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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21-02-2011, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania
Yes. By calling the dog to you and rewarding it when it comes, showing the dog that coming to you is AWESOME. They get to play tug, or chase a ball, or get something super awesome tasting. They get to learn that you give them the reward and then release them to continue whatever they were doing most of the time. They learn to trust you and that being at your side is SO MUCH MORE REWARDING than anything else out there.
You start with some place that a recall is easy in and then work up to distractions. It doesn't take a lot of time for many dogs, but it happens gradually.
So if using a shock collar is gradual and using positive reinforcement is gradual, why the freaking *bleep* do you use pain?
You can use deprivation to make them more motivated (which will have fallout ect) or you can increase motivation in other ways.
Even with a motivated dog it seems to take months to get a reliableish recall around distractions.
I can have a reliable recall around distractions in a few hours. Then the owner practises for a while and I come back and we do another sesison around high distractions.
If needed we can run the sessions together and get a reliable recall around high distractions within 3 or 4 hours.
Adam
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