For all the 'anti' Cesar Millan people

I am not looking for a fight here, I know there are those who love CM's methods and we will never agree with each other.
I am making no comment on your training or your relationship with your dogs, I am pretty sure all your dogs are as happy as mine and well cared for and loved.

But MY belief (and that of most training and behaviour bodies in the world) is that CM's methods as seen in some of his show are cruel and can be dangerous for dogs and people
I believe about this strongly enough that I would like to do something about this

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...ar-millan.html
Firstly the petition - to request that Nat Geo stop endorsing this abuse by screening his show - or at least while there is any doubt at all stop screening him until there is proof that his methods are not cruel

Also
I would like to compile evidence of how his methods can make some dogs more dangerous
What I am asking for is
a) Traininers and behaviourist and vets, any case histories of dogs you have had to rehabilitate because CM's methods have not worked/made worse dogs
b) Trainers who have trained in the past using dom methods but who have now moved on to more positive training - the reasons why you changed and the differences you have seen
c) the rest of us - examples you have seen where your dog/a dog you know has been made worse by CM type training methods

Of course change names to protect people
It would be great if you could post them on here, but I understand why some people wouldnt want to so if you dont want to then pm me

please all keep it nice.
This is not a thread to discuss his merits - we have had these kind of disscussions lots in the past
It is also not a thread for people to put up their sucess stories - if you want make a new thread for that.

I dont want an argument here - just facts!

I've signed it and added it to my FB page. I have nothing other than my personal opinon to add to it though, but I like to think I know right from wrong.

Will happily sign and speak to people I'm in touch with to ask them to contribute something about dogs they've worked with.

Not sure it'll do any good though as Nat Geo have heard all of this before and it's a huge money spinner.

I think at the moment we should definitely be asking UK organisations to make themselves heard against this abuse. I can't understand why the Royal Society for The Prevention of Cruelty to Animals haven't issued something yet or haven't got involved.

I heard a rumour that one behaviourist organisation was going to make a statement but we need more than that.

I think the problem is a huge amount of people think that those opposing CM's methods are Joe Public who are soft about their dogs and don't understand behaviour whereas in actual fact there are a huge amount of trainers and behaviourists who make very valid points and are just accused of being jealous of his success.

Good luck on your petition, but i cant see how your questions will equal 'proof' or 'fact' in the true sense, as it will all be subjective and contextual.
However, it will serve as a good exercise as an anecdotal weight of evidence.

I think the ultimate aim has to be to raise awareness that X amount of people would like to see his methods reviewed and considered.

i've signed it. i only hope it does some good. the more people that complain about him the better.

Thanks Pidge

Lottie - I totaly know what you are saying, however I am hearing that in Denmark they got CM banned from the TV and the channel made a positive dog training programme. Italy is also in the middle of trying to get him banned

Hopefully if we can pull together enough information all in the one place then it will have power! Already on the petition the comments are so amazing, Joe Public, trainers who used to use his type of methods and behaviourists and vets who are picking up the peices every day.
When I have some more info I will contact organisations and see if I can get a statment - if they havent already by then - I know one has come out already
http://www.apbc.org.uk/cesar_millan_tour_concerns
http://www.coape.co.uk/awsn.html

Thats what my last paragraph concluded.
You are right, the collection of evidence would work from that point of view: anecdote and public opinion.
Both of which are always subjective anyway.
Albeit both purposes would be undermined if everyone was anonymous.

But i cant see, as Ben suggested, the survey having the purpose of 'fact' or 'proof'?

Ben, have you noticed that if you try to stream episodes from the NatGeo website or their YouTube, you can't view the really 'bad' ones (obvious use of prongs on already terrified dogs etc.)? I'm thinking of Banjo the coonhound and Teddy the poodle primarily, as they're the ones I was particularly disturbed by and tried to find to show people. It seems to me that NatGeo have noted that some are unpleasant to watch and might fuel the 'antis' if they could freely access the footage. Perhaps it's irrelevant/co-incidental, but I found it interesting as I can't weigh up whether it's a positive step (NatGeo coming to their senses) or whether it's just NatGeo trying to limit who sees the obviously bad stuff freely (without having to purchase a DVD). What do you think?

I don't know anyone who has used methods exclusive to CM, but do know of someone who used an e-collar to try and stop game chasing. It didn't work and the dog became more nervous, unpredictable and mistrustful after it had been used - could be purely coincidental of course! Will sign the petition now!

Yes, I know. I do agree with you.