Hello GSDLover!

First off...by putting themselves on the tv as 'trainers' these people are going to get both criticism and praise...that's what they are being paid for.
On top of that, just because someone has been doing something for 20+ years, doesn't make them perfect, nor does it mean that someone less 'experienced' couldn't do as good, f not a better job. Experience is fantastic but so is fresh faced enthusiasm.


I'm really sorry people are worried about saying tings on Dogsey...

The way i see it, is that this is an internet forum which encourages debate...
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that you can't have a laugh in a different thread.
We are all learning and debate/reading and discussion are all part and parcel of that process.
I , hand on heart, love the dabates we have on here, i love people putting their opinions forward...almost as much as I agree debating opinions, after all, what's the point in having an opinion if you are not willing to stand by it??? I adore Dogsey because we are able, I hope, to do that in a grown up and friendly manner...(most of the time).
No-one is going to agree with everyone else on here...and if they did...it would be really incredibly boring.

Hoorah for friendly debate and discussion I say...please GSD LOver, visit more often because I for one, used to enjoy your threads and find what you had to say both stimulating and interesting. xxx

I agree completely but until they put themselves up for Dog Borstal or another series, we only have their word that all that they do would be applauded by the general public. The current DB trainers are putting their reputations on the line by doing as they are doing and that, whichever way you cut it, should command a degree of respect. They aren't just sitting in front of their screen yelling "useless", "cruel", or a whole host of other, sometimes quite ridiculous, nonsense.

Again, I agree. They should both be considered equally. Just because the DB trainer's methods may not sit well with the current positive only crowd, it does not mean they are invalid (or cruel) either.

Agreement again! However, when you can actually predict, as soon as someone writes something, who is going to chip in and play the cruelty or wreckless card, you know it's ceased being open debate. This was the last thing I witnessed before I decided to take a break from here. Usually, I would do as you suggest, visit another thread, etc. However, in this case, it was enough for me to make my excuses and just leave them to it.

I don't much care for fanaticism (in any degree) in any walk of life, and if I can walk away from it, I do. Life is easier and much more relaxing that way.

Glad we agree on a lot of it... :smt002

Thing is, I don't see how it ceases to become an 'open' debate, just because you know who will say what...
As you spend longer on a forum, you know who you agree with most of the time and who you don't. You know the names, you know people's opinions on stuff before they even post, just like you get to know people in the 'real' world. That's life, but doesn't stop the debate being 'open'.
I've been leapt upon for expressing my opinion a few times on here...fine...bovvered? Nope...it's my opinion...that's why I give it, I listen to others, and have even been known to change it on occassion (and on here) but generally I stand up for what I believe in...why not? I enjoy that side of Dogsey and from my point of view, there is never any malice or anything involved, just good natured discussion...
I'm thinking, I'm one of the people who you perceive to stop the open debate with accusations of cruelty etc...
I do think some things on DB are 'cruel' (eg, Mic doing an alpha roll and choking the dog in the last series) if i think something is cruel, yep, I'll shout loud about it...sorry.
That doesn't mean I won't listen to a conflicting opinion though...but just 'cos I listen, doesn't mean I have to agree....

It's sad some people feel jumped upon, but we have all been there....we will never all agree...c'est la vie!

That sounded bad...i meant c'est la vie about us never agreeing...not c'est la vie about people feeling jumped upon....sorry

The problem comes when one person pretty much only chips-in to say that they think x, y, or z is cruel, with little or no other contribution. I've no time for that. Of course, as you say, it's the net and people are free to do and say as they wish, within reason. Equally, I'm free to just leave them to it when I feel it goes beyond the point of being reasonable.

The trouble is...people often only have the chance to 'pop' onto threads...

I've also left threads when I feel people are being unreasonabel or getting personal (which I think is unfair on here) and yes, you are free to do so, I'm not saying you're not, I just like your contributions and feel it's a shame you don't feel able to voice them.

If I have upset you, I apologise... not sure when it was though...

Rest assured, to the best of my knowledge, you never have. Quite the opposite. I find your views quite balanced in general. (Like you needed me to somehow confirm you have balanced views!?) lol

phew.
Didn't think I had...but you just never know..seem to be getting very paranoid of late!!!!:smt002

Think my OH would argue with the idea of me being 'balanced!!!'

When that happens, ask them what they would do in the exact same situation. Then, the readers can make up their own minds as to whether their methods are a) workable and b) more humane/less cruel.

I have asked the same question in the past, but not to catch anyone out, just because I am always interested in new techniques, and hey, if there is a better way to do something I am all for it.

If you think a someone is not playing ball - dismissing your views and not providing an alternative, then people will see that for themselves and of course it will effect their credibility, not yours

So on that note, I too, would like to ask all those who think the rattle bottle is cruel, what is their alternative?

Not sure I think the rattle bottle is 'cruel' in every situation...
I think it can be an effective training aid, in the right hands..I've seen it work with one of my dogs last week, in the hands of an experienced and fantastic and awe inspiring trainer...it was actually with the Biffters and she used this 'aid' on him when he was barking when she came in...I wasn't there,I was outside and I heard him go quiet and saw her looking shocked that it had such an immediate and lasting effect!!!!!
I do think however, that one trainer on the programme uses it far too much and the dogs look scared of it. He tends to use it when the dogs try to sniff something or get distracted by something when out and about...(what dog doesn't)...personally, I find training a very clear and consistent 'leave it' command...from day 1 works brilliantly well. I prefer this method, in that scenario, because I am telling my dog, very clearly, what I would like it to do, they know they are rewarded if they do it...they make a choice about their behaviour.
If I were to use a rattle bottle in that situation, I would not be telling the dog what was expected of it, I would be making it scared of putting it's nose to different sights and smells when we were out and I would be loading a 'leave it' command with a fearful response.
I don't want that.
My dogs follow a 'leave it' command, because i've spent hours with them training them to understand the command...so now, they will 'leave' anything I ask them to on a walk, without being scared.That's when I think a 'cruelty' accusation could come in...making dogs scared... Yes, I use a firm voice, but that's largely to differentiate my command from my praise...'leave it' firm 'good boy' stupid plonker voice...

Sorry I've gone on, hope I've made some sense!!!!!