Actually I wasn't referring specifically to you, as I have often thought your posts were pretty spot-on and well researched, sorry if you took it so.

Of course it was a blanket statement, but not without foundation. I can quantify it in my breed for instance. 2 breeders out of 20 who workout COI. How do I know? Because it is a club requirement, and we talk to each other. I'm happy to bet a substantial amount that the ratio is similar in other breeds...I go to shows, we get talking...etc etc

I'm afraid you are incorrect, though, about an average COI for the UK dogs. If your breed had a database for all UK registered dogs that worked out COI you could have a population average. Many, many breeds do it and it is the way forward. You could do one for C-Ps (may be a shorter job than GSDs)!

I have been talking to Finnish Kennel Club with some success to incorporate the UK FL into KoiraNet to get a worldwide database that is searchable that automatically calculates COI to 10 gen. If all countries took responsibility for their native breeds in this way, it would be solvable as the UKKC is dragging its feet on this. It also takes the heat off one poor soul in each breed trying to do data entry.

As I said you cannot have one without the other, genetic screening and testing plus diversity would do a lot for dogs. 'Knowing your lines' is still to me a red flag....I look and question closely if I hear that phrase. It is necessary but not to exclude all else. Too many breeders using that phrase still only use a 5 gen paper pedigree and line breed on that: top winners in show and working world alike. As ever it is a balance.

I am doing my best to spread the word on using modern tools in everyday breeding, with some limited success, but my doG it is hard work. Breeding has always been a science that attracts its fair proportion of well-meaning (often) idiots. How long have we been taught about genetics yet so many breeders (with pride???) say they know so little.( All last year I pestered clubs and KC to run seminars on genetics)

Unfortunately, daft inputs over time can easily ruin a breed and turn it into some lame excuse for a dog, unable to function without pain and with a raft of health problems covering a page of A4. I intend to try to stop that happening to the FL an ancient and hardy type, fit for function day after day in minus 30 C, before it is too late. I never want to hear the phrase 'I left FLs because of health problems' . Something former breeders of BMD, GSD, Great Danes etc say regularly.

Finally, in case anyone else has any doubt here is today's blanket assertion:

Certain popular breeding practices to establish type carry risks. One of those is restricting genetic input from a wider pool. This in turn can lead to a more genetically similar pool of dogs. This action reduces a dogs ability to fight off auto-immune disease and concentrates polygenic inherited disease in a small pool. This in turn forces breeders to health test for everything under the sun, and hope more tests are developed soon. Cause and effect. The emphasis is in the wrong place.

In case you think I am being overly pious, we have a real problem in the FL a former landrace dog from Finland that was decimated in WW2 thanks to troops shooting the dogs as they fled and a distemper outbreak. Remaining dogs were selected according to type not pedigree and a small breeding pool was established but without any certain knowledge of ancestry. We are already playing with fire...at generation 10/11 written records stop. Who honestly knows if the original stock were closely related or not. I don't and don't plan to exacerbate health issues for short-term gain.

Do guide dogs elbow score? GSD's have huge elbow problems and so do Labs.

I think the programme needed to be made but I still think that somewhere in the programme, even as a final 'how to minimise the chances of an unhealthy pedigree dog' she should have pointed out what good practices to look for.

The average person watching a documentary will look only at what they see on the screen - they often won't have any other knowledge of the subject and will believe 100% what has been said.

Yes she has stirred up the kennel club which is a good thing, but I'm convinced that the explosion in designer crosses has been helped enormously by her programme because it lead the average pet owner who watched this to think 'all pedigree dogs = bad, any cross whatsoever = good'.

Since the programme I have seen quite a few adverts for these crosses selling the pups on the basis of them being healthy because they were crosses.

I do think that she should have anticipated this likely reaction.

Found this on the guidedogs site. It doesn't mention specific health tests, it does however, mention their position on inbreeding, which some one brought up earlier.

More came up in the search results, I've just not read through it all yet.

I know for a fact that this is true as one very large KCAB who also produces/sells large numbers of crosses has mentioned PDE on their website as the reason they produce crosses!
Becky

Hi Mary
I didnt think you were specifically aiming at me, and I do understand were you are coming from, but behind the scenes so to speak I work with a lot of GSD breeders of a specific type to try and rectify the problems caused by breeders back in the 70's which was when a lot of the inbreeding in my type occurred.
The problem with GSDs is there are too many (not as many as the past) breeding like a lot of breeds that shouldnt do and havent a clue.
When I say about 'knowing the lines' as you are probably aware I research my breed constantly and can trace the majority back to the beginning, obviously except the BYB ones and unpapered ones. I always insist people go back to at least the 9th/10th generations when looking at breeding, as you said too many people think if it is 'off the pedigree' ie more than 5gen back they dont need to take it into account, when as we are both aware it can cause major problems if there is a bottleneck further back than 5th.
Re the UK KC they drag their feet on most issues especially if it costs.
Yes as you say the CPs will be easy to start with as there is only 25 years of written records, although currently there is a database that is searchable it doesnt incorporate the COI. My intention is to input them all into one of the programmes I have, so I will have my own to use when/if I breed off them.
A new programme I purchased last year that I havent used as yet, I intend to transfer all my GSD data as the current programme I am using is getting to the maximum. I could do with retiring to find the time.

Pam

Thanks for replying. I did suspect we were singing from a similar hymn-sheet from previous posts of yours .

Mostly I go slowly slowly behind the scenes too.....but every now and then vent some frustration in blanket statements...usually gets a discussion going anyway LOL. It may take me til 2012 to get Finnish KC to 're-adopt' all overseas FL into an all-singing/dancing database but I will keep trying!!!

Know what you mean re retiring!

Mary