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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Louise13 View Post
I don't KNOW..but I love my dogs too much to take the chance!
Surely you can find a safe area?
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Tassle
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04-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Life is full of risks Tassle, we cannot protect ourselves or our dogs against them totally. All we can do is to minimise the risk. So I personally feel that Cesar was justified in using rather extreme measures to reduce Daddy's risk. Being a pitbull his prey drive, tenacity and sheer bloody mindedness means that drastic measures were needed.
Humm....I have a friend in the USA who works a lot with Pitbulls...she has never had to resort to these methods.

Also - from what I understand this was a fairly old dog...Had CM had him any length of time? It surprises me that he had just, at that point in his life, decided that he needed to be trained to be frightened of snakes.

Yes life has risks.....do you not feel there is any other way to teach dogs to avoid or steer clear of dangers....or is it the quick fix thing that appeals?
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Meg
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04-06-2009, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Mini, with the greatest respect you took considerable pains to consistently delete posts made by myself and others that were in your opinion off thread. And yet here you are doing exactly the same thing! Going off thread. Tut tut!! O well, I guess when you are a moderator it is one rule for you, one for everyone else fair enough.

I have consistently been attacked by Claire just because I use methods of training which in her opinion are cruel. She is quite entitled to her opinions of course, but she is not entitled to accuse me of being cruel and abusive, which she has done over the last few days/weeks. If you can't take it, she shouldn't dish it out.

I shall ignore your nasty remarks about me in your posting Minihaha and just put them down to jealousy.

Right, let's get back on track. You say if you lived in the States you would have the gumption to find a snake-free place. Where? How? America is a huge place. We have learned that the snake training with Daddy took place in Southern California, which if my geography serves me correctly is nigh on a desert scrub area, hundreds and hundreds of miles. How far do you consider it would be to travel for a walk every day just to avoid snakes, assuming you had the time and the money to be able to do such a thing? How do you know where the venomous snakes are?

My dog is very good at "leave", but I haven't got eyes in the back of my head, and I cannot be guaranteed to watch him so intently during the whole of a walk that I am ready to shout "leave" ! the minute I see a snake ! Doubtless he would see or hear it long before me ... one bitten dog.

Sorry, I had to go and walk my dog ... off lead, no snakes, no e-collars !! I will resume the search later, but from the short time I was googling I did not come up against any "anti" snake training sites. I found one that was in favour of e-collars for this type of training.

I think the best thing is if we wait until Promethean is on line so we can ask him about the whole snake issue in the States. Is it hyped up, or is it a serious problem, especially in snakey areas, whatever and wherever they might be.
Gnasher, if you have problems with posts being deleted by moderators please contact admin. I am at at loss to see why anyone could be jealous of you, can you explain this comment ..

My post above addresses the original topic 'can there ever be justification for the use of e collars' so is not off topic .

I am sure there must be some places in the whole of the USA that don't contain rattle snakes, I have friends and family who lived in the USA ,had dogs,let them off the lead and the dogs survived!

Some dogs suffer anaphylactic shock as the result of wasp and bee stings, are you suggesting everyone in the UK should teach insect aversion with the use an e collar just in case their dog is susceptible to stings?
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Lucky Star
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04-06-2009, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
But I for one won't condemn my dog to a life on the lead ! If I lived in Southern California, with Tai, and he was in grave danger from rattlesnakes, I would not try and solve the problem by keeping him on a lead! I would do everything I could to train him to leave the dang things alone, and most probably I would be able to, but should I completely fail, and any dog trainer I employed also failed, then I would consider calling in an expert in the use of an e-collar. But I have to say it would have to be the most very last resort.
It's a nice sentiment but while you are trying to train him off-lead and without the e-collar, he might be bitten.
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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Humm....I have a friend in the USA who works a lot with Pitbulls...she has never had to resort to these methods.

Also - from what I understand this was a fairly old dog...Had CM had him any length of time? It surprises me that he had just, at that point in his life, decided that he needed to be trained to be frightened of snakes.

Yes life has risks.....do you not feel there is any other way to teach dogs to avoid or steer clear of dangers....or is it the quick fix thing that appeals?
Good ! Because using an e-collar on a dog is not good. It should only be absolutely and very last case scenario.

Cesar adopted him off someone, I forget the story, various people keep telling me, and I forget.

Yes, to your third paragraph! Yes but I do keep saying that e-collars should only be used when ALL OTHER METHODS have failed. The quick fix thing does not appeal per se, but if we have a life and death situation, as Cesar thought he had, and IF all other methods have failed, then try the e-collar - in expert hands of course.
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Louise13
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04-06-2009, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Surely you can find a safe area?


http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p...edium=text_url

Note Cruisers recall
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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
It's a nice sentiment but while you are trying to train him off-lead and without the e-collar, he might be bitten.
True, but I personally would take the risk rather than just go straight for the e-collar. It would really depend on how determined the dog was to get the snake. Daddy was pretty determined, Tassle reminded us, along with some other of Cesar's dogs.

Tai - provided I "get his attention" before he has made the initial "break" - can be stopped in his tracks from chasing anything, even sheep. But Hal? No, never. I think with him in that situation I would have had to consider keeping him on the lead whilst trying to train him to leave. He had such lightening reactions though, although possibly not as lightening as a snake - the thought of an e-collar is horrendous. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to decide!
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Tassle
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04-06-2009, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Good ! Because using an e-collar on a dog is not good. It should only be absolutely and very last case scenario.

Cesar adopted him off someone, I forget the story, various people keep telling me, and I forget.

Yes, to your third paragraph! Yes but I do keep saying that e-collars should only be used when ALL OTHER METHODS have failed. The quick fix thing does not appeal per se, but if we have a life and death situation, as Cesar thought he had, and IF all other methods have failed, then try the e-collar - in expert hands of course.
Ok - so when do you condem a method for failing....some dogs take time to learn things....how do you set that time limit.

I do not like E-collars....I have seen them in use on dogs and watched how they are used, I was even on the verge of thinking they had a place in dog training before I became more enlightened. The situation being described is not how e-collars are EVER meant to be used.
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Lucky Star
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04-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Really enjoyed that! (Did he pee on the railings?)
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Lucky Star
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04-06-2009, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
True, but I personally would take the risk rather than just go straight for the e-collar. It would really depend on how determined the dog was to get the snake. Daddy was pretty determined, Tassle reminded us, along with some other of Cesar's dogs.

Tai - provided I "get his attention" before he has made the initial "break" - can be stopped in his tracks from chasing anything, even sheep. But Hal? No, never. I think with him in that situation I would have had to consider keeping him on the lead whilst trying to train him to leave. He had such lightening reactions though, although possibly not as lightening as a snake - the thought of an e-collar is horrendous. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to decide!
Loki is similar to Hal, I think. He knows, too, that on the lead there's not much point in bothering, so he lulls you into a false sense of security. I'm onto him now, though.
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