I think you could trip up on tour own definition here!

The key is in the term different species OR varieties.

Variety of: "A number or range of things of the same general class that are different or distinct in charachter."

Hybrid origin: early 17th century; Hybrida, "Offspring of tame sow and wild boar, child of a freeman and a slave,etc"

The above acts as a good comparison: the tame sow might be the dog, the wild boar the wolf. The freeman and the slave are both humans of the same species but the variety is defined in social status.

Moving swiftly on, I have been kissed by a few wolves as well -I must say not the most delicate of snoggers some.

And awfull lot of random people in one pub who have been involved in breeding in one way or another..and all having experience of dams regurgitating food.

.What it proves is that all bitches are differnet, some many regurgitate food, but from my experience most dont.

Spoke to an old friend who has been breeding forever!..and he told me in all his yrs he has only ever seen one do so..

Along with afew other friends who I have been at all stages of welping/weaning... and never seen a dam do this.

Seen many a pup asking for her to do so, but not yet seen one actually do so.

I don't agree with what SE has said but maybe he's interpreting the info regarding the influence in the womb to pups of various hormones, one of which if I recall correctly is testosterone. It's something to do with if a female pup for instance is next to 2 male pups, that sort of thing.

Not sure what else he means, but I really don't believe alpha dogs are "born" (particularly as I only believe alphas are the breeding pair anyway...!) so we will agree to disagree on that one

Wys
x

Tee he, not quite Gnasher - your friends' dogs were regurgitating for their pups as you mentioned earlier. So, we all agree, on that! To clarify, that that may well happen even if some of us have not personally seen it happening.

But not all adults regurgitate - as in, juveniles, older ones, etc....
whereas wolves do, according to Mech.

Wys
x

You are right. While we observe the some dams regurgitate to their pups, the sire will not nor will any cohabitants of the pups. It is just another example how domestication has fragmented behavioral characteristics.

No lone wolf has alpha status. It is an outdated comparative term like '<' symbol, there must be something to compare it to for the wolf to be alpha. Secondly, while you may share the views of Ellis, the rest of scientific community disagrees. As of yet, Ellis has not provided a reasoning or the conditional parameters which make an alpha wolf or dog.

And I am disappointed that you ignore my post on the role of environment and opportunities on the genetic make up of animals. This selective bias is not conducive to a fruitful, honest discussion.

You've also ignored the mechanism of inbreeding avoidance and persist with some folkloric romantic notion of wolf behaviour.

Hi Gnasher,

I am not going to fully wade into the alpha debate as I stated where I stood a long time ago in this thread and there are many people making much more eloquent discussions than myself. But I do have two quick questions I was wondering if you could help clarify in relation to it.
You said that about a programme:
"Where there was a lone male sniffing around a pack. During a hunt and subsequent kill, a naughty female slipped off and had sex with this lone male. Unfortunately for them, during the tie the rest of the pack smelled a rat and came to see what was going on ! They were caught de flagrante, frantically trying to break their tie which of course they couldn't do. The poor male was absolutely petrified and was attacked by the alpha male and his betas, but for some reason wasn't killed"
Would you not say this is anthropomorphisation of the animals and their relationships?

And as a side note (although i personally think a very relevant one to the debated issue) you touched on nature/nurture:
"I am a nature not nurture girl. I believe wholeheartedly that ALL pack animals ... us included ... are the way we are because of our genetic makeup"
Are you honestly saying that both mankind and dogs are purely the way there are due to their biology and not in any way shaped by the world and experiences around them?

Sorry another question for Gnasher, hands up in the air I am not a wolf expert hence the question. You said:
"Wolves were not merely hunted by man. They were PERSECUTED ! In this country, they were completely exterminated purely because of the myth that they were the devil incarnate.

Because of this, it is absolutely essential ... and I know this from personal experience, so please don't argue with me ! ... that if you take a very high % F1 or a pure wolf from its mother to raise as a pet, you need to do this well before the pup is 3 weeks old, certainly no older than 3 weeks"

Are you saying that wolves have remembered specifically that man used to hunt them or have I misunderstood?
Sorry to be a pain! Only just catching up with this whole thread!!

As I pointed out to Gnasher when she did it, you are using circular logic.

The claims of Shaun Ellis are done without supporting evidence. Claims without evidence are worthless.

This is true for any species that lives in groups. We should also not that wolves leave the pack after sexual maturity because they can't mate within their family unit, Oedipal issues do not occur in a wolf family unit.


This is nothing new and we observe the same behavior in human prisons, rats, apes, monkeys,chickens, seals and countries. Aggression/War/Competition for the control of limited resources is common in every species.



As for Alphas breeding, it does appear normal to have a breeding pair but it is not un-known for another female to breed as well. Unfortunately it appears that non of the wolves have ever read any text books, but the great thing about science is that it constantly evolves and what is a hard and fast fact today is disproved history tommorow. As nobel prize winning animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz is reputed to have said: How could I have got it so wrong?

Hybrid is a correct term for a wolf-dog cross.

Promethian: If you have ever observed a wolf pack or several, even in captivity you will see that the so called "Alpha" has a very different attitude temprement or what ever you may wish to call it, it is one of aloof confidence. This is not a question of if or maybe, all you have to do is look. As many have done. Including specialists in their field like Mech or Theberge etc etc

The point of debate is that Gnasher says Shaun Ellis claims they were born this way by some process in the womb. I have merely commented that they are born with a set of charachteristics that make them suit this role. There is plenty of evidence (and ongoing research) to suggest that shyness is an inherited trait so why not boldness or any other. The least confident members of the group are very unlikely to become the leader; go look at your example of prisons or any other part of a society.

There is also evidence that some wild wolves will mate very close to their family unit, usually where they are reduced in numbers.